According to m local queer club (2018) trans guys usually only are a year present until they vanish bc they can blend into society.
Personal experience: I can blend into society.
Why would anyone be visable trans if its avoidableš¤
Yep, exactly what I did. I actually only went to the meetings twice, they were depressing af and made me feel a lot worse overall. If I'm honest, I really hate being seen as trans first and a man second if people know do know I'm trans. I know the moment I come out to people, they will more often than not completely change their perspective on me or start asking me really unnecessary and invasive question. I cba with all that. As far as I'm concerned, only my doctor and any future partners need to know I'm trans. It's not anyone else's business unless I want it to.
amen to u/justalilguy73
i spent the first 22 years of my life fighting who i was and being made fun of for being a ātomboyā or just a little different. now that i life confidentially as myself, i donāt necessarily feel the need to be involved in trans groups
I hate it when people find out I'm trans because 90% of the time there is this almost palpable shift in how they interact with me. It's clear that even if they see me as a man there is the trans qualifier to it. I am a man with a "history" of transition. While I'm not done with what I want to do as far as my transition, I prefer to say it that way. I didn't consciously understand why, I just knew it felt better. When I read what you said about being seen by other people as being trans first it clicked in my brain why it felt better.
>there is this almost palpable shift in how they interact with me
Exactly this, you can just see it in their eyes and the gears are shifting in their head. They then do look at you completely differently, and it really hurts. I would love it if I could just be casually be out and it not be a problem, or have to worry about transphobia. But sadly that's not the world we live in yet, not even sure if I'll see that world in my lifetime or if it will ever happen at all.
>I would love it if I could just be casually be out and it not be a problem, or have to worry about transphobia.
I can definitely relate to that. Pre-T I had this idea that I was going to be "publicly" out. I thought that once I got past coming out to my parents, who had recently become religious and used it justify their preexisting bigotry, that I could just be out to everyone. Coming out at work was hell. People I had known and developed friendships with for the last year, were suddenly awkward as though they didn't know how to interact with me. There was as a deluge of super invasive questions. I figured out quickly I could shut those down by asking them to detail similar things about themselves. If the asked anything related to my genitalia I would tell them I would answer their question if they first described the length, depth, girth, etc. If their own genitalia. The relationships I thought were solid and would be unaffected were suddenly different.
I was surprised at some of the relationships that endured. Some were actually strengthened as a result of me living authentically, even though It's not publicly like I thought it would be. Just being able to be outwardly seen they way I have always felt on the inside has made relationships more meaningful. My friends are friends with the real me. I no longer have to try cram myself into a box that I could never fit into.
Sorry for the wall of text. I've struggled to find community and it's not often I feel truly heard and understood. For providing me a few moments of that I thank you.
FR!! cant stand the entitlement to personal information that people have when they find out im trans. i hate being thought of like that, and a lot of women in particular oversexualize it.
Right? It's so messed up. I don't understand why everyone seems to think all trans people are completely fine being asked questions about their genitals. Like stop asking me if I have a penis for christ's sake. Not like you're gonna be going anywhere near that area anyway so why do you need to know?
This!!!!! It's distressing how even other lgbt folks do a 180 once they know you're a trans man. The way people treat me and talk to me once they know is incredibly different and it's disheartening.
It really is and what sucks as well is how so many LGBT folks think that once you tell them you're trans that means you then want the whole world to know. A lot of them just can't comprehend the meaning of being stealth, I actually worry more about telling someone who's also LGBT than telling a straight person because they seem to think all trans people are super proud of who they are. Like maybe one day I'll get to a point where I don't care about being seen as trans cause I am working more on self-acceptance, but let me get there in my own time. People need to stop outing other trans people, it's not right.
Dude, 100%. I'm finally at the point where I accept my trans identity, but that does NOT mean I want everyone to know about it! I've had multiple trans people out me to others and then act like they did nothing wrong when I confront them. I don't want people to know unless I tell them.
It probably also explains why there are lots of younger transmen. Lots of them are unable to transition until they're older, so they are noticeably trans for longer and identify more with the trans label
It's always been that way tbh. Even in history, the overall trans community has been trans women, trans men like actual men who just so happen so be trans have been scarce mostly because on average trans men just are in the community when they first come out then soon just..... I don't wanna say leave because they don't need it anymore (there's plenty of actual trans male spaces) but we just don't need the LGBT involvement in our community if that makes sense? I guess you can say we're legit just men that happen to be trans there's really no difference in cis men and trans men in terms of socialization and us living our lives
Even the some trans men still need surgeries and rely on the trans community for support but they also do research on surgeons for future surgeries. I would say it's hard for a trans man to be completely post op even after a year on hrt.
I never said that tho? I was just stating that generally speaking, IRL lgbt communities do really help people taking the first steps through social and sometimes medical transition,, but once that helpless Idfk what to do phase is over, we tend to get along on out own quite well. We start to pass, we blend into society and the more that happens, the less of the community vibes are needed.
Sure we can ask once in a while stuff online but thats not beeing active to me. Active to me means, beeing an activist, beeing deep into the lgbt szene and know what the fuck is going rn.
I think the majority here is just like "Hey I got a quick question" and then "Ah okay gotcha, see u in a few months when I got the next question."
Yeah, itās like once we pass reliably thereās little need for us to continue to identify as trans or hang out with other trans people. Iām certainly not stealth-level passing but I am passing enough where if I donāt disclose Iām trans a lot of people wouldnāt know so Iām already facing situations where I ask myself if I want people to know or not - because if I donāt tell them they might not actually clock me. Just 4-5 months ago when I didnāt pass at all, I was much more out and loud about being trans because why not?
I see my queer community involvement in the future being mainly just gay male spaces, which of course are mostly populated with cis men, and that feels comfortable to me. I have trans male friends of course but I find many ftm āspacesā to be insufferable in one way or another. A lot of drama and queer ādiscourseā.
From the pov of a straight masc binary man, I donāt feel like I have much place in queer spaces tbh. The only hat I can throw in there is the fact that Iām trans but the times Iāve tried being in those spaces they were very feminine, somewhat anti male, and I couldnāt really get with the culture. They definitely have benefits for guys who need a community and maybe donāt pass yet or new. Iām not gonna say that having a space like that didnāt benefit me. It doesnāt benefit me too much anymore given how far I am into my transition.
I canāt do ftm spaces anymore because a lot of them are not for trans men like me anymore. I wouldnāt care about non binary people being in ftm spaces if it wasnāt for the fact that the environment changes and becomes more accommodating to them instead of us. What I find funny is that trans women donāt go through the same issue in their spaces nor are they looked at side ways for wanting their own space or being exclusive to binary women and not dancing around language. Meanwhile, phalloplasty groups that are predominantly filled with trans men canāt say āmenā or āguysā because of non binary people. A lot of times thatās not their fault. Itās other trans men who have a āwhite saviorā complex and go out their way to provide a space. Meanwhile making US, walk on eggshells and if we speak up, grown ass men resorting to shaming tactics like some little ass girl and snide remarks and other goofball behavior.
Not interested
I think this may be skewed based on the internet.
Binary trans people, meaning, men and women who happen to be trans, have never been a huge portion of the population. Genderqueer people (nowadays generally non-binary people) may simply be a larger population. Some people may think they're non-binary and later realize they're more binary than not and vice versa.
I think back in the day, before there was greater societal understanding of this stuff, a lot of people who are nowadays non-binary IDed might have referred to themselves as trans men.
Also, a lot of binary people, if/when they medically transition and if/when they begin to be able to pass as their cis counterparts, phase out of support spaces. So it's not surprising to me that many find themselves being the "only one" in these spaces.
This ^^^
u/BB_Jack Back - in 70-90s there was a different standard for assessing who had access to medical transition and who didn't, called the Harry Benjamin standard. This included more strict guidelines, including transitioning to a masculine presenting, *heterosexual* male. Many binary FTMs who were gay would usually just lie and say they were straight men so they wouldn't run into issues. This actually just meant many people were forced to lie and say the right stuff in order to receive the care they wanted.
People who would've otherwise ID'ed publicly as genderqueer/NB/etc *had* to ID as FTM to continue care. There wasn't really an in between back then.
Nowadays, people are more freely able to ID how they are comfortable because most health professionals follow WPATH instead.
So like above commenter said, the binary sides of transition have probably always been truthfully small with most people ID'ing somewhere along the middle. Picture the normal distribution curve, with 100% male and 100% female being at either end. It's honestly probably more like that (though how close it matches, we probably won't know until years into the future).
Just wanted to share that norway still operates like in the 70's-90's. The only doctor in norway (Esben esther pirelli Benestad) that gave nb people hormones lost their licence a couple of days ago.
What data? The data I've seen (I don't have citation handy) showed a larger portion of trans people IDing as non-binary identities rather than binary identities.
I don't think some trans dudes are seeing the correlation between "I'm just like any other guy, I don't even bring up that I'm trans, I just want to be seen as a regular man and I plan to go fully stealth" and "why aren't there more trans men in trans spaces?"
ā This!!!!! We get so good at blending in with cis men that we are even stealth from each other.
Maybe we should come up with some secret way to identify ourselves to each other without the cis knowing. /s
A lot of transmen also aren't really open about it to that many people, whereas a lot of nonbinary (not all) kind of have to be when they're trying not to be misgendered. So it may just be about who is more vocal.
Now that some comments mention it, IRL queer spaces are a mess and indeed, when you blend and realize that you can just join any space and be seen as a dude, why bother hearing random transphobic shit or how men are bad? I mean, the lgbt space in my city had a trans party which banned men from entering... How the fuck am I supposed to prove that I'm trans?? And why would I want a place which doesn't allow men??? It was the last drop for me and I can't be bothered with queer spaces any more. If I wanna have a drink or some more gay friends I've already made them through life or I make new ones on grindr.
How does one have a trans party and say no men allowed. It is either excluding a large portion of trans people or it's saying that trans men are not men. I'm not trying to start drama, it's just that the idea made my brain hurt.
Also you can make friends on Grindr? I thought that was just for finding casual sex partners. I guess I'm out of the loop on things.
Still bothers me to this day. I was so angry that I tore one of the flyers down. Tbh last time I was in that place it had a bunch of weird triggering imagery of equating trans men to lesbians and trans men with "I love my vulva" shirts. Really odd place. It's also pretty weird coz outside of the queer circles I don't deal with transphobic weirdos, so it's calmer to just live life without the "lgbt folk groups".
Yeah:) I've made a few friends over the years, it's pretty rare but it's possible! Also you kinda have to have it very obviously written on your bio and state ahead when messaged, coz dudes can be a bit uhhh horny thinking lmao.
i donāt feel like itās less common, itās just that people shove nonbinary labels on trans men like crazy. I have nothing against nonbinary people, I support them, it just annoys me how everyone shoves nonbinary label on me, because I donāt know, they hate men? Canāt deal with me wanting to fully transition and itās a big change? I donāt know, but even my own parents refuse to see me as a guy, they even fully convinced themselves Iām nonbinary, I had to have so many talks with them that Iām a man and that they have to deal with it.
Also in online (or even irl because it started spilling over) queer or feminist spaces it seems like everyone hates men, it feels like trans men get even more hate than cis men for āwillinglyā transitioning into an āevilā gender. As if it was our choice to be men. I dunno, I agree with the sentiment that trans men seem to distance themselves from lgbt+ communities, Iāll probably do that too when Iām further into my transition, despite also being asexual and aro or bi or whatever. I donāt want to insert myself into spaces when Iām judged for being a dude, or if Iām not judged for it, everyone insists that Iām not a one.
I dunno. Even both gynaecologists I saw assumed I wanted to be androgynous and was non-binary despite me telling them I was FtM and I've met many more non-binary individuals IRL than transmen
I'll be honest when people refer to me or any other trans man as "transmasc" it violently pisses me off..I didn't spend all this money and jump through these hoops for this shit.
I use my transman and transmasc labels interchangeably because in reality I have no clue what I am, I know I wish I was AMAB and I want to pass as amab but I feel that I enjoy being feminine sometimes, idk if itās me being a feminine guy or if itās enough to call myself nb (although it feels slightly inaccurate), I know Iām okay with he/him or they/them, idk what the fuck I am so I use the labels interchangeably because they are both close enough
I get this. When I was first discovering my identity, I struggled to find a label I really vibed with. Personally, I want people to look at me and see me as a man no matter how I present. My gender is male, but my presentation can be feminine at times. It doesn't make me any less of a man. Many cis men also enjoy dressing feminine (such as femboys) and they're still men. If you feel somewhere between male and non-binary, you may find the label demiboy fits you? If not, you may be like me and find that you enjoy being a femboy at times
I fucked around with the demiboy label on the internet a bit and it does kinda describe me but I canāt really use that label irl bc no one is gonna know what it means + no oneās gonna respect me when I tell them Iām a gender theyāve never heard of before, I just go with trans man bc it gets the point across.
i relate to that a lot, when I was just figuring out Iām trans I had no idea whether Iām a guy who dislikes gender norms or nonbinary or something entirely else. What helped me realise Iām a guy was trying to imagine what would it look like if I was born amab instead. Would I still identify as nonbinary or would I be happy with being a guy that occasionally would experiment with gender stuff? The answer is that I would be happy just being a guy and it got further confirmed when I started moving on with coming out and social transitioning, because I realised how uncomfortable and dysphoric for me it is to be seen as a lesser of a guy. Good luck to you at figuring yourself out.
you and me both man. i went by just the catch all ānon-binaryā for a couple years and i think the best label iāve come up with myself for now is he/they trans femboy. hopefully eventually iāll pass well enough to just be āfemboyā thoā¦
Yes. And I'm about to rant about it, lol.
I wish I could say that I am transmascā because I am trans and masculine, and it seems like a no-brainer to identify with such words.... but no, it has somehow come to include dykes and butches (imo)
The world is just getting more and more abstract and confusing. Can't words just mean what they actually mean? Is nothing allowed to be taken literally anymore? Do all identities have to be overly inclusive to the put that any differentiation or diversity is then diluted out? These days it's like everything means all things, and all things mean nothing šµāš«
Amen. And since transmasc is supposed to be referring to masculinity in trans people, why aren't Butch trans women transmascs? Oh that's right, because it's really still all about the sex assigned at birth.
yep but iām sure itās to do with the fact most binary people end up being stealth later on or just stop hanging out in trans spaces. personally have only dealt with toxic childish shit in the majority of online trans spaces so iām not very active except reddit and bottom surgery spaces.
Well, like most people said here I think it is because trans men dissapear of trans spaces once they pass. And personally I might do the same in a future. I'm kinda tired of trans problematic spaces which most of them are compound of people who are not even going through the same thing, such as transmasc. I don't really want to be forced into a label that has nothing to do with me. That's why I only like this sub, people get me here. But once you pass you wanna move on from it and continue your life. I really don't wanna remember I'm trans 24/7. It's not something I'm proud of cause it's who I am. Like should cis people be proud? Should left handed people be proud? It's the way you are born. Proud is a word for something you have achieved more than something you always had. Most guys just wanna forget about it too and blend into society I guess
There's literally, officially twice as many NBs as binaries in my hometown. Source: the government trans census. Of course people will still pretend they're some super rare minority super oppressed by *us* š as if they aren't basically synonymous with all transness now and control the entire trans narrative and community
Iād imagine that non-binary people generally outnumber binary trans people, similar to how bisexuals outnumber gays and lesbians. But just as how most bi people would previously just stay closeted and get straight-married, most nb people previously just stayed closeted and got by being some degree of GNC - which I believe is still the case for most AMAB NB folk for whom the risks (e.g. murder) of being seeing as visibly trans far outweigh the benefits of being recognized as their gender or medically resolving dysphoria. Thatās much less so the case for AFAB NB people, hence more of them feeling free to come out, at least in some contexts.
This does mean that AFAB trans spaces will see an increasing proportion of NB trans people, but it doesnāt mean they donāt belong there, and that it would instead be useful to create specific spaces for trans men (plus NB folk more aligned with that binary experience, e.g. those who pursue a binary medical transition and/or choose to live their lives as men despite not identifying as such).
I've read that over 90% of "nonbinary" people are afab so that's likely a big reason. Still really weird and depressing to see our spaces being taken over by people that aren't ftm
Most non binary people are indeed afab, [per this study](https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/trgh.2018.0068).
Additionally, non binary people comprise 32% of the general transgender population, [as found by this study](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/nonbinary-lgbtq-adults-us/).
The second study you linked had this "A greater percentage of nonbinary LGBTQ adults are cisgender rather than transgender."
Would anyone be able to enlightenment me as to how one can be both cisgender and nonbinary? I thought that cisgender meant that you identified as the gender you were assigned at birth and transgender was used as an umbrella term for identifying as something different than what you were assigned at birth. Is that not the case?
I think that it's possible transmisandry is pushing some of these people away from acknowledging and accepting that they're men, even those of us who are feminine men. Trans men are emasculated, encouraged not to be too masculine, and told phalloplasty isn't within reach. I feel like society is pushing people into being a more palatable version of transgender.
This this this. I know of plenty of ātransmasc nonbinaryā people who are literally doing a binary medical and social transition and I think would identify as men if they hadnāt already been steeped in the misandrist brand of āfeminismā first.
There's plenty of nonbinary spaces and they choose to go into ftm spaces. I tried going to a transgender group irl and it was all transmasc nonbinaries who presented entirely feminine
Idk maybe there should be more spaces for ftm folks explicitly excluding nb folks at this point? That seems pretty fair to me.
I see this a bit (entirely feminine presenting nb "transmasc" ppl) and it does frustrate me but where I live it's less of an issue irl where there just magically like no transmen, so I guess hard to imagine. but also thinking abt the fact a lot of people cant, wont, or dont know how to transition despite being ftm...? idk. its hard for me to throw everyone under the bus like that.
still stand by that the 90% thing is bs.
Yes, because teenage girls going through their self-exploratory hopping onto fads phases are quite common in society. Always have been, itās just been different fads over the generations. The emo craze of the early 2000s, now itās the GNC / FtN stuff. Transsexualism, on the other hand, is quite uncommon. Always has been. Hence there being so many less transsexual men compared to self-identified FtN non-binaries.
Teenage boys typically donāt have the same āI need to be different and uniqueā phases that teenage girls often have, generally boys more so want to fit in to the crowd rather than be ānot like the other boysā like the ānot like the other girlsā trope. Hence MtN non-binaries not being as common, and therefore not overtaking transsexual women the same way FtN nonbinaries overtake transsexual men.
Also, transsexual men generally blend in to society quite well, compounding this even more.
Its a pretty controversial take but I agree quite a bit with you. Being trans has *multiple times* been some sort of fads. Usually we end up with a wave of angry detransitioners every few years or so because of it. I would say 2016 and 2020 were big years for teens coming out as trans.
There is a very disproportionate amount of AFAB teenagers coming out as some sort of trans, if someone is denying it theyāre probably that demographic or not paying much attention. (*And let me be clear: there is nothing wrong with exploring oneās identity. The newly out teens just usually are the most obnoxious since theyāre excited about their new label.*)
ā¦But on the flip side of that, like you said, teenage AMAB people tend to prefer to try and fit in with the crowd which is also why we donāt see many MtF or MtN teenagers.
Detransition is absolutely a thing that happens, but what few studies have been done on it point towards the social pressures of being trans and a loss of community driving it, not a lack of being trans.
Teens being obnoxious about who they are isn't anything new, but transphobes (not saying you're one) tend to trot out these talking points about people being pushed into being trans that don't bear out when you dig into the data.
I absolutely agree that transphobes tend to abuse these talking points. Its one of the easiest ones for them to use since there is quite a few people who have been the fad-type that are now speaking out aggressively against trans folks. Its a cheap and easy one for them to latch onto and have some sort of source to back it up.
I donāt think the topic of teens being trans as a trend is one to be ignored, but the current climate of the world vs trans people, putting energy into the actual conversation just gives transphobes fuel right now, so itās probably a good thing we donāt give it much attention.
All in all, doesnāt matter it someone is just experimenting or has been out for years, I respect them regardless.
Iāve read many detransition narratives and I havenāt found any that I would consider the fad type. Apart from those who detransitioned due to social or political pressures (e.g. getting drawn into TERF ideology, disowned by family, fired from their jobs), or where transition failed to live up to their hopes (e.g. those who despaired at never being āreal menā and gave up), some of them were just failed by their doctors who were in turn failed by the continued ignorance around trans issues.
I found it striking that many of them never had an actual desire to be male. One who grew up in a highly conservative area said she wished someone had told her it was ok to be a girl who was masculine and liked girls, but no one ever told her that and so she thought that transitioning was the only way to find acceptance. Others were using transition as escapism from past sexual trauma. Thereās nothing trendy about that.
I donāt consider it disproportionate at all when comparing their numbers to that of female-presenting AFAB adults I know in their 40s, 50s or 60s whom Iām pretty sure would have identified as some flavor of non-binary had they been born a generation or two later.
When I first came out, I had an older female friend message me about how they had also never felt right as a woman, but it was too late now, though they still wondered how their life may have been. I also had a couple of teachers who strongly tripped my transdar, masc-presenting, unisex nicknames, living as (straight) women but whom I can easily imagine being repressed gay trans men or NB.
It's true that it happens more on girls to explore themselves but I don't think that's a gender thing but more like society being less bothered by girls doing it instead of guys cause I think deep down the world still doesn't take women seriously
I mean I agree that thereās probably numerous factors playing into it, but the reason is kind of irrelevant here. The fact that the trope is more common among teenage girls still remains, and I think plays a large role in explaining why thereās so many more self-proclaimed FtN non-binaries compared to MtN non-binaries. Which further explains why FtN is drowning out FtM way more than MtN is drowning out MtF.
A far larger role is that it is actively dangerous for AMAB people to express any femininity or gender non-conformity, let alone trans identity. I know plenty of nominally cis guys whom I imagine would identify as NB if the risks didnāt far outweigh any possible reward.
Likewise, a large driver of that trope among teen girls who may or may not be cis is that femininity and womanhood continue to be devalued and denigrated in society, not teen girls being frivolous and wanting to be different for the fun of it. Wanting to be ānot like other girlsā is often at least partly driven by wanting to be treated with the same basic respect that their male peers have, in the case of cis girls, and that plus dysphoria in the case of trans boys and non-binary youths.
It also doesnāt logically translate into adopting a trans identity, as seen in the many trans girls who also say theyāre not like other girls but very much identify as such.
āmiĀ·sogĀ·yĀ·ny: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.ā
Point me towards what you think suggests I have a dislike of or prejudice against women, please. Because merely recognizing that there are different frequencies of certain characteristics in teenage male social groups vs teenage female social groups isnāt any such thing, itās just an observation of statistical reality. Kind of like how recognizing females have a higher rate of breast cancer isnāt misogynistic, or males a higher rate of violence isnāt misandristic, etcetera.
Let people recognize that there are sometimes statistical differences in different groups without automatically accusing them of prejudice, please. Itās ridiculous.
That's all nice and good, except you specifically brought out the tired "transtrenders" bullshit that gets levied against non-binary people, particularly AFAB non-binary people. It's all rooted in not taking trans people seriously about their identities.
If somebody is exploring their identity, and ends up trans, great! If someone is exploring and ends up cis, great! Either way, they learned about themselves, and either way, it's unproductive (and harmful) to ridicule people for their growth.
The younger generation is going to have it a lot easier than we did. Fucking good. I want being trans to become unremarkable. I want it to be something you can just be, without society's judgments or disbelief. That will never happen, but we sure as shit don't have to add to the pile.
Definitely, we are being drowned and driven out of our own spaces. With that I feel is also the onslaught of shaming actual masculinity. No wonder trans men aren't too visible in the community then; real men are hated and driven out of these spaces.
I have a few thoughts on this:
1) I think it statistically makes sense that there would be more non binary people than binary trans people, itās a large umbrella of identities
2) the past several years trans identities have become more well known so more people have discovered themselves
3) alternatively more people are exploring their gender and while they may not end up being trans, are currently in the middle of learning more about themselves, this is not a bad thing
3.5) itās is more socially acceptable for afab people to explore masculinity than it is for amab people to explore femininity, hence the larger amount of afab nonbinary people
4) binary trans men shoot themselves in the foot on this, we canāt have a community if no one wants to acknowledge their transness or be open about it. The majority of binary men go stealth, and abandon the community to a degree, sometimes entirely. Sometimes even keeping it hidden from other irl trans people theyāre friends with. Our already smaller numbers seem even smaller.
5) in contrast to how binary men tend to go stealth, non-binary people donāt get that luxury. We have the option to silently be recognized as our gender once we pass and go through life without really having to come out. Nonbinary people donāt get to pass. They must always out themselves if they want even the chance to be gendered correctly. So of course the group that is forced out in the open is the one that seems the largest and the loudest, unless theyāre fine with being always misgendered there is no other option.
The solution is one I donāt think people will want to do, but if we want community in being binary trans men, then we have to break the culture of going stealth we have. I know people do it for comfort and for safety, and I respect that. I also think thereās a degree of cowardice about it when I think of all the people who donāt have the luxury of passing and going stealth who continue to be trans and transition and be out, loud, and proud and do community organizing for the greater good. And then compare that to all the trans men whoād rather just blend into society and not challenge the system that hurts us. For every stealth-for-safety man in a conservative trans hostile area, there is an out and open trans person trying and fighting for their life and right to exist that benefits us all in the end.
This is so interesting to me, my friend who is queer, used to ID as nonbinary- but after seeing so many people ID as nonbinary and then transition to a binary gender (this includes me I went from nonbinary to ftm) he stopped using this label. He uses queer now, but just feels invalid because of this trend in his space- he knows he shouldn't let it affect him but yanno. That being said, I do know more nonbinary people than trans- my sibling is nb, and another friend of mine is transmasc (used to be ftm).
I think that not being welcome in queer spaces is part of it. I am not visibly trans. Making other people uncomfortable makes me uncomfortable. A lot of people see me in trans spaces and don't assume I'm trans. That can make them uncomfortable. I hate being on the outside of things and being out of the out group is even worse, so it's better just to not participate.
This is coming from someone who was vice-president of my college's GSA-- and the only trans man in the group.
I think that a lot of passing guys feel the same. FTM spaces don't really exist off the internet because of transphobia and because there is an increase in trans people who aren't binary who make a majority of trans spaces (Which is good!!! Everyone should be allowed to play with or ignore gender to their comfort level!).
I'm 17 and a lot of adults who've known me longer refer to me as 'they' even tho i'm openly presenting as male and not everyone even knows im not a cis guy. idk if thats related but i find it interesting that people assume differently.
Dude same, everyone at work refers to me as ātheyā aside from one angel of a manager I have. It makes me cringe. Some days Iām alright with they/them, but I donāt consider myself to identify with those pronouns. Iām a binary transsexual male, thatās all. I hate being seen as less than that.
My boyfriend and I have talked about this before many times and our sort of kinda-asshole-petty-not-that-serious conclusion is many people liking the aesthetics of manhood but not actually wanting to deal with any of the actual man-experience. So instead of being a man they just go with masc nonbinary lmao
But on a more serious note, I think a lot of trans men just prefer to not interact too much with queer spaces. In my experience a lot of queer spaces already talk a lot of shit about men and ridicule them regularly so to me and Iām sure others itās not a very welcoming place once youāve gone passed the early transition phases. Its especially annoying when queer spaces like to try and categorize trans men as anything other than men.
There are plenty of trans men in the world, theyāre just not as outspoken as the rest of the trans community.
I think that human sexuality is extremely complex and as time goes on, it's going to become more diverse because there are more places for people to explore and experiment with their gender identity, so maybe some groups that were lumped together will morph into their own thing and thus less folx will be in the original group.
Yes because of cis girls faking being trans.
Itās a trend for girls to fake various illnesses and disorders on social media and itās a trend to be trans.
Transmasc is a meaningless term so itās very easy for them to appropriate being trans under the term.
Your point was that girls/women enjoy faking serious conditions for the attention, which surely you can tell is pretty sexist, dismissive and condescending. Plus the claim that being trans is a trend, but somehow only girls are silly/desperate enough to fall for it while boysā¦ have the sensibility and strength of character not to? Iām not sure what other non-sexist rationale you would have for that claim.
Thatās not sexist or condescending Itās a documented fact. Nearly everyone that fakes medical issues and mental disorders are female.
Being trans has become a trend.
Boys fake being stronger and more able than they are and face stricter gender roles. They have little to gain from faking being trans.
Men fake things like military service and degrees. Things that give honor and prestige.
I did some googling; the facts seem to disagree.
From NHS UK:
> āThere appear to be 2 separate groups of people affected by Munchausen syndrome. They are:
>- women who are 20 to 40 years of age, often with a background in healthcare
>- unmarried white men who are 30 to 50 years of ageā
Another source, this time an academic paper:
> āPeople with (factitious disorders) tend to be women aged 20 to 40 years and employed in medical fields, such as nursing or medical technology. Persons with chronic FD (Munchausen's syndrome) tend to be unmarried, middle-aged men who are estranged from their families.ā
WebMD:
> āIn general, Munchausen syndrome is more common in men than in women. While it can occur in children, it most often affects young adults.ā
Iāve found nothing suggesting it is particularly common in teenage girls. There was [this](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/000992280504400307?journalCode=cpja) case study on teenage girls who faked illnesses, but some did so to avoid going to school while the others did so as a result of genuine mental disorders.
Do you have sources suggesting otherwise?
Downvoters, I get that calling another trans person a TERF is a lot, but sometimes people earn that shit. The "AFAB non-binary people are just doing it for the attention" line is **straight out of the TERF playbook**.
We don't get a pass to be fuckheads just because we're trans.
Me neither. I always say trans man or just ftm, trans masc just doesn't seem to fit right. Possibly because many people thought I was nonbinary when I first came out and it really bothered me for a while. To me, being called nonbinary is almost the equivalent of being called a woman. Anyone else feel the same?
You don't need to copy spam this. Yes, we are trans and transitioning with masculanising hormones to a masculine presentation. Many people would consider us transmasc. But for many people, the label of transmasc doesn't feel right them. Just as for many people the label of
transexual or queer or gender-nonconforming may not be comfortable for them. They can all be accurate descriptors, but the way they are used can change and some people may not feel comfortable with them.
Transmasc is a large term that can encompass anyone who's AFAB from demigirls to genderfluid people to non-binary individuals to demiboys to transmen. Since it's such a large term, many people may not have shared identities and experiences with everyone in that group. As a transman, my experience is very different to someone who may be AFAB and genderfluid, and as such, I prefer not to group myself as transmasc. Many people also have started to use the term transmasc as its own seperate label to mean someone who is AFAB and transitioning into a masculine person, but not a man.
It is a label. It may be a label inclusive of transmen, but not all transmen connect to or identify personally with the label
Trans masc has become a distinct identity for some, and a lot of trans men do not consider themselves to be a "subset" of trans masc nor under the trans masc umbrella.
I experience trans men and trans masc as distinct identities/experiences, and personally do not consider myself "trans masc." I'm a man who happens to be trans.
Little sick of this umbrella term being forced on us and stripping us of our manhood. We arent simply just "masc", we're men. And I don't want to be lumped in a group that apparently accepts lesbians, or a group thats rarely even ""masc" to begin with...
Defensive because, unlike what you state at the end of this comment, you are absolutely labeling us all as transmasc. Not sure how anyone could read your comments as saying anything other than that. You're not going to find many people in support of that term being used for binary ftms in a binary ftm subreddit.
"To transition to be more masculine" highly debatable when you really take a look at the presentations of the people who use this term to describe themselves, but whatever
And no, butch lesbians are butch lesbians. They're not transitioning to become men. To be /male/. Not masculine. Masculine is not a sex. Has the definition of trans really been diluted that much? That people who aren't transitioning and changing their sex to male (or want to, because I know that'll be brought up too as a "gotcha" because medica issues etc etc) are somehow the same as us? You're lumping women in with us men (who have fought very hard to not be considered women, by the way) and expect me not to be kind of defensive. Right now I kind of loathe how the term transsexual has become less popular...
Edit: you're seriously copy and pasting your reply over and over, jesus christ
Im a gender queer man one can be a man and nonbinary but honestly I think if I alredy passsed maybe I would also avoid mentioning Im trans. Ppl they me just bcs I look trans but donāt pass is anoying
hey! i dont mean to be that guy, but please use the word "trans men" nor "transmen". transmen is a word pushed by terfs as a subtle way to be transphobic by making it seem like theres a difference between trans men and cis men, to make it seem like being a man is different than being a transman by making it a different noun rather than a different adjective
I think most trans men irl are more likely to avoid queer spaces tbh.
According to m local queer club (2018) trans guys usually only are a year present until they vanish bc they can blend into society. Personal experience: I can blend into society. Why would anyone be visable trans if its avoidableš¤
Yep, exactly what I did. I actually only went to the meetings twice, they were depressing af and made me feel a lot worse overall. If I'm honest, I really hate being seen as trans first and a man second if people know do know I'm trans. I know the moment I come out to people, they will more often than not completely change their perspective on me or start asking me really unnecessary and invasive question. I cba with all that. As far as I'm concerned, only my doctor and any future partners need to know I'm trans. It's not anyone else's business unless I want it to.
amen to u/justalilguy73 i spent the first 22 years of my life fighting who i was and being made fun of for being a ātomboyā or just a little different. now that i life confidentially as myself, i donāt necessarily feel the need to be involved in trans groups
I hate it when people find out I'm trans because 90% of the time there is this almost palpable shift in how they interact with me. It's clear that even if they see me as a man there is the trans qualifier to it. I am a man with a "history" of transition. While I'm not done with what I want to do as far as my transition, I prefer to say it that way. I didn't consciously understand why, I just knew it felt better. When I read what you said about being seen by other people as being trans first it clicked in my brain why it felt better.
>there is this almost palpable shift in how they interact with me Exactly this, you can just see it in their eyes and the gears are shifting in their head. They then do look at you completely differently, and it really hurts. I would love it if I could just be casually be out and it not be a problem, or have to worry about transphobia. But sadly that's not the world we live in yet, not even sure if I'll see that world in my lifetime or if it will ever happen at all.
>I would love it if I could just be casually be out and it not be a problem, or have to worry about transphobia. I can definitely relate to that. Pre-T I had this idea that I was going to be "publicly" out. I thought that once I got past coming out to my parents, who had recently become religious and used it justify their preexisting bigotry, that I could just be out to everyone. Coming out at work was hell. People I had known and developed friendships with for the last year, were suddenly awkward as though they didn't know how to interact with me. There was as a deluge of super invasive questions. I figured out quickly I could shut those down by asking them to detail similar things about themselves. If the asked anything related to my genitalia I would tell them I would answer their question if they first described the length, depth, girth, etc. If their own genitalia. The relationships I thought were solid and would be unaffected were suddenly different. I was surprised at some of the relationships that endured. Some were actually strengthened as a result of me living authentically, even though It's not publicly like I thought it would be. Just being able to be outwardly seen they way I have always felt on the inside has made relationships more meaningful. My friends are friends with the real me. I no longer have to try cram myself into a box that I could never fit into. Sorry for the wall of text. I've struggled to find community and it's not often I feel truly heard and understood. For providing me a few moments of that I thank you.
FR!! cant stand the entitlement to personal information that people have when they find out im trans. i hate being thought of like that, and a lot of women in particular oversexualize it.
Right? It's so messed up. I don't understand why everyone seems to think all trans people are completely fine being asked questions about their genitals. Like stop asking me if I have a penis for christ's sake. Not like you're gonna be going anywhere near that area anyway so why do you need to know?
This!!!!! It's distressing how even other lgbt folks do a 180 once they know you're a trans man. The way people treat me and talk to me once they know is incredibly different and it's disheartening.
It really is and what sucks as well is how so many LGBT folks think that once you tell them you're trans that means you then want the whole world to know. A lot of them just can't comprehend the meaning of being stealth, I actually worry more about telling someone who's also LGBT than telling a straight person because they seem to think all trans people are super proud of who they are. Like maybe one day I'll get to a point where I don't care about being seen as trans cause I am working more on self-acceptance, but let me get there in my own time. People need to stop outing other trans people, it's not right.
Dude, 100%. I'm finally at the point where I accept my trans identity, but that does NOT mean I want everyone to know about it! I've had multiple trans people out me to others and then act like they did nothing wrong when I confront them. I don't want people to know unless I tell them.
It probably also explains why there are lots of younger transmen. Lots of them are unable to transition until they're older, so they are noticeably trans for longer and identify more with the trans label
It's always been that way tbh. Even in history, the overall trans community has been trans women, trans men like actual men who just so happen so be trans have been scarce mostly because on average trans men just are in the community when they first come out then soon just..... I don't wanna say leave because they don't need it anymore (there's plenty of actual trans male spaces) but we just don't need the LGBT involvement in our community if that makes sense? I guess you can say we're legit just men that happen to be trans there's really no difference in cis men and trans men in terms of socialization and us living our lives
Even the some trans men still need surgeries and rely on the trans community for support but they also do research on surgeons for future surgeries. I would say it's hard for a trans man to be completely post op even after a year on hrt.
I never said that tho? I was just stating that generally speaking, IRL lgbt communities do really help people taking the first steps through social and sometimes medical transition,, but once that helpless Idfk what to do phase is over, we tend to get along on out own quite well. We start to pass, we blend into society and the more that happens, the less of the community vibes are needed. Sure we can ask once in a while stuff online but thats not beeing active to me. Active to me means, beeing an activist, beeing deep into the lgbt szene and know what the fuck is going rn. I think the majority here is just like "Hey I got a quick question" and then "Ah okay gotcha, see u in a few months when I got the next question."
Yeah, itās like once we pass reliably thereās little need for us to continue to identify as trans or hang out with other trans people. Iām certainly not stealth-level passing but I am passing enough where if I donāt disclose Iām trans a lot of people wouldnāt know so Iām already facing situations where I ask myself if I want people to know or not - because if I donāt tell them they might not actually clock me. Just 4-5 months ago when I didnāt pass at all, I was much more out and loud about being trans because why not? I see my queer community involvement in the future being mainly just gay male spaces, which of course are mostly populated with cis men, and that feels comfortable to me. I have trans male friends of course but I find many ftm āspacesā to be insufferable in one way or another. A lot of drama and queer ādiscourseā.
From the pov of a straight masc binary man, I donāt feel like I have much place in queer spaces tbh. The only hat I can throw in there is the fact that Iām trans but the times Iāve tried being in those spaces they were very feminine, somewhat anti male, and I couldnāt really get with the culture. They definitely have benefits for guys who need a community and maybe donāt pass yet or new. Iām not gonna say that having a space like that didnāt benefit me. It doesnāt benefit me too much anymore given how far I am into my transition. I canāt do ftm spaces anymore because a lot of them are not for trans men like me anymore. I wouldnāt care about non binary people being in ftm spaces if it wasnāt for the fact that the environment changes and becomes more accommodating to them instead of us. What I find funny is that trans women donāt go through the same issue in their spaces nor are they looked at side ways for wanting their own space or being exclusive to binary women and not dancing around language. Meanwhile, phalloplasty groups that are predominantly filled with trans men canāt say āmenā or āguysā because of non binary people. A lot of times thatās not their fault. Itās other trans men who have a āwhite saviorā complex and go out their way to provide a space. Meanwhile making US, walk on eggshells and if we speak up, grown ass men resorting to shaming tactics like some little ass girl and snide remarks and other goofball behavior. Not interested
True af bruhh
I think this may be skewed based on the internet. Binary trans people, meaning, men and women who happen to be trans, have never been a huge portion of the population. Genderqueer people (nowadays generally non-binary people) may simply be a larger population. Some people may think they're non-binary and later realize they're more binary than not and vice versa. I think back in the day, before there was greater societal understanding of this stuff, a lot of people who are nowadays non-binary IDed might have referred to themselves as trans men. Also, a lot of binary people, if/when they medically transition and if/when they begin to be able to pass as their cis counterparts, phase out of support spaces. So it's not surprising to me that many find themselves being the "only one" in these spaces.
This ^^^ u/BB_Jack Back - in 70-90s there was a different standard for assessing who had access to medical transition and who didn't, called the Harry Benjamin standard. This included more strict guidelines, including transitioning to a masculine presenting, *heterosexual* male. Many binary FTMs who were gay would usually just lie and say they were straight men so they wouldn't run into issues. This actually just meant many people were forced to lie and say the right stuff in order to receive the care they wanted. People who would've otherwise ID'ed publicly as genderqueer/NB/etc *had* to ID as FTM to continue care. There wasn't really an in between back then. Nowadays, people are more freely able to ID how they are comfortable because most health professionals follow WPATH instead. So like above commenter said, the binary sides of transition have probably always been truthfully small with most people ID'ing somewhere along the middle. Picture the normal distribution curve, with 100% male and 100% female being at either end. It's honestly probably more like that (though how close it matches, we probably won't know until years into the future).
Just wanted to share that norway still operates like in the 70's-90's. The only doctor in norway (Esben esther pirelli Benestad) that gave nb people hormones lost their licence a couple of days ago.
Damn, that's nuts, and really sad. I'm sorry for you and other folks in Norway.
Maybe for some people's perspectives, but actual data disputes this interpretation at least for some places.
What data? The data I've seen (I don't have citation handy) showed a larger portion of trans people IDing as non-binary identities rather than binary identities.
I don't think some trans dudes are seeing the correlation between "I'm just like any other guy, I don't even bring up that I'm trans, I just want to be seen as a regular man and I plan to go fully stealth" and "why aren't there more trans men in trans spaces?"
Pretty much this
ā This!!!!! We get so good at blending in with cis men that we are even stealth from each other. Maybe we should come up with some secret way to identify ourselves to each other without the cis knowing. /s
i was just about to comment this
Youāre not the only one dude. Out of the three trans people I know theyāre trans masc/ non binary. Havenāt met a binary trans man like myself.
A lot of transmen also aren't really open about it to that many people, whereas a lot of nonbinary (not all) kind of have to be when they're trying not to be misgendered. So it may just be about who is more vocal.
That's how I feel about it too
Ive only met one other trans man.
Hi I'm Andy. Now you've met a 2nd transman. Lol
Now that some comments mention it, IRL queer spaces are a mess and indeed, when you blend and realize that you can just join any space and be seen as a dude, why bother hearing random transphobic shit or how men are bad? I mean, the lgbt space in my city had a trans party which banned men from entering... How the fuck am I supposed to prove that I'm trans?? And why would I want a place which doesn't allow men??? It was the last drop for me and I can't be bothered with queer spaces any more. If I wanna have a drink or some more gay friends I've already made them through life or I make new ones on grindr.
How does one have a trans party and say no men allowed. It is either excluding a large portion of trans people or it's saying that trans men are not men. I'm not trying to start drama, it's just that the idea made my brain hurt. Also you can make friends on Grindr? I thought that was just for finding casual sex partners. I guess I'm out of the loop on things.
Still bothers me to this day. I was so angry that I tore one of the flyers down. Tbh last time I was in that place it had a bunch of weird triggering imagery of equating trans men to lesbians and trans men with "I love my vulva" shirts. Really odd place. It's also pretty weird coz outside of the queer circles I don't deal with transphobic weirdos, so it's calmer to just live life without the "lgbt folk groups". Yeah:) I've made a few friends over the years, it's pretty rare but it's possible! Also you kinda have to have it very obviously written on your bio and state ahead when messaged, coz dudes can be a bit uhhh horny thinking lmao.
i donāt feel like itās less common, itās just that people shove nonbinary labels on trans men like crazy. I have nothing against nonbinary people, I support them, it just annoys me how everyone shoves nonbinary label on me, because I donāt know, they hate men? Canāt deal with me wanting to fully transition and itās a big change? I donāt know, but even my own parents refuse to see me as a guy, they even fully convinced themselves Iām nonbinary, I had to have so many talks with them that Iām a man and that they have to deal with it. Also in online (or even irl because it started spilling over) queer or feminist spaces it seems like everyone hates men, it feels like trans men get even more hate than cis men for āwillinglyā transitioning into an āevilā gender. As if it was our choice to be men. I dunno, I agree with the sentiment that trans men seem to distance themselves from lgbt+ communities, Iāll probably do that too when Iām further into my transition, despite also being asexual and aro or bi or whatever. I donāt want to insert myself into spaces when Iām judged for being a dude, or if Iām not judged for it, everyone insists that Iām not a one.
I won't lie I think you answered your own question in the very first sentence of your post
I dunno. Even both gynaecologists I saw assumed I wanted to be androgynous and was non-binary despite me telling them I was FtM and I've met many more non-binary individuals IRL than transmen
I'll be honest when people refer to me or any other trans man as "transmasc" it violently pisses me off..I didn't spend all this money and jump through these hoops for this shit.
I think nonbinary people are more common than binary but also trans men just go stealth more I think
Haven't encountered it
I use my transman and transmasc labels interchangeably because in reality I have no clue what I am, I know I wish I was AMAB and I want to pass as amab but I feel that I enjoy being feminine sometimes, idk if itās me being a feminine guy or if itās enough to call myself nb (although it feels slightly inaccurate), I know Iām okay with he/him or they/them, idk what the fuck I am so I use the labels interchangeably because they are both close enough
I get this. When I was first discovering my identity, I struggled to find a label I really vibed with. Personally, I want people to look at me and see me as a man no matter how I present. My gender is male, but my presentation can be feminine at times. It doesn't make me any less of a man. Many cis men also enjoy dressing feminine (such as femboys) and they're still men. If you feel somewhere between male and non-binary, you may find the label demiboy fits you? If not, you may be like me and find that you enjoy being a femboy at times
I fucked around with the demiboy label on the internet a bit and it does kinda describe me but I canāt really use that label irl bc no one is gonna know what it means + no oneās gonna respect me when I tell them Iām a gender theyāve never heard of before, I just go with trans man bc it gets the point across.
i relate to that a lot, when I was just figuring out Iām trans I had no idea whether Iām a guy who dislikes gender norms or nonbinary or something entirely else. What helped me realise Iām a guy was trying to imagine what would it look like if I was born amab instead. Would I still identify as nonbinary or would I be happy with being a guy that occasionally would experiment with gender stuff? The answer is that I would be happy just being a guy and it got further confirmed when I started moving on with coming out and social transitioning, because I realised how uncomfortable and dysphoric for me it is to be seen as a lesser of a guy. Good luck to you at figuring yourself out.
Iād probably want to be that one VISIBLY gay guy that did feminine stuff as a kid and paints his nails and did theatre or choir tbh
you and me both man. i went by just the catch all ānon-binaryā for a couple years and i think the best label iāve come up with myself for now is he/they trans femboy. hopefully eventually iāll pass well enough to just be āfemboyā thoā¦
Yes. And I'm about to rant about it, lol. I wish I could say that I am transmascā because I am trans and masculine, and it seems like a no-brainer to identify with such words.... but no, it has somehow come to include dykes and butches (imo) The world is just getting more and more abstract and confusing. Can't words just mean what they actually mean? Is nothing allowed to be taken literally anymore? Do all identities have to be overly inclusive to the put that any differentiation or diversity is then diluted out? These days it's like everything means all things, and all things mean nothing šµāš«
Amen. And since transmasc is supposed to be referring to masculinity in trans people, why aren't Butch trans women transmascs? Oh that's right, because it's really still all about the sex assigned at birth.
yep but iām sure itās to do with the fact most binary people end up being stealth later on or just stop hanging out in trans spaces. personally have only dealt with toxic childish shit in the majority of online trans spaces so iām not very active except reddit and bottom surgery spaces.
Could be plain old innate sexism of not taking women seriously
Well, like most people said here I think it is because trans men dissapear of trans spaces once they pass. And personally I might do the same in a future. I'm kinda tired of trans problematic spaces which most of them are compound of people who are not even going through the same thing, such as transmasc. I don't really want to be forced into a label that has nothing to do with me. That's why I only like this sub, people get me here. But once you pass you wanna move on from it and continue your life. I really don't wanna remember I'm trans 24/7. It's not something I'm proud of cause it's who I am. Like should cis people be proud? Should left handed people be proud? It's the way you are born. Proud is a word for something you have achieved more than something you always had. Most guys just wanna forget about it too and blend into society I guess
There's literally, officially twice as many NBs as binaries in my hometown. Source: the government trans census. Of course people will still pretend they're some super rare minority super oppressed by *us* š as if they aren't basically synonymous with all transness now and control the entire trans narrative and community
Iād imagine that non-binary people generally outnumber binary trans people, similar to how bisexuals outnumber gays and lesbians. But just as how most bi people would previously just stay closeted and get straight-married, most nb people previously just stayed closeted and got by being some degree of GNC - which I believe is still the case for most AMAB NB folk for whom the risks (e.g. murder) of being seeing as visibly trans far outweigh the benefits of being recognized as their gender or medically resolving dysphoria. Thatās much less so the case for AFAB NB people, hence more of them feeling free to come out, at least in some contexts. This does mean that AFAB trans spaces will see an increasing proportion of NB trans people, but it doesnāt mean they donāt belong there, and that it would instead be useful to create specific spaces for trans men (plus NB folk more aligned with that binary experience, e.g. those who pursue a binary medical transition and/or choose to live their lives as men despite not identifying as such).
Oh I bet you're into something here!
I've read that over 90% of "nonbinary" people are afab so that's likely a big reason. Still really weird and depressing to see our spaces being taken over by people that aren't ftm
Most non binary people are indeed afab, [per this study](https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/trgh.2018.0068). Additionally, non binary people comprise 32% of the general transgender population, [as found by this study](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/nonbinary-lgbtq-adults-us/).
The second study you linked had this "A greater percentage of nonbinary LGBTQ adults are cisgender rather than transgender." Would anyone be able to enlightenment me as to how one can be both cisgender and nonbinary? I thought that cisgender meant that you identified as the gender you were assigned at birth and transgender was used as an umbrella term for identifying as something different than what you were assigned at birth. Is that not the case?
I think that it's possible transmisandry is pushing some of these people away from acknowledging and accepting that they're men, even those of us who are feminine men. Trans men are emasculated, encouraged not to be too masculine, and told phalloplasty isn't within reach. I feel like society is pushing people into being a more palatable version of transgender.
Transmisandry is why I avoid queer spaces online
Sometimes, it's why I go to them. I'm determined to push back and make the space safe for me and new boys and men.
This this this. I know of plenty of ātransmasc nonbinaryā people who are literally doing a binary medical and social transition and I think would identify as men if they hadnāt already been steeped in the misandrist brand of āfeminismā first.
That's not even true and also pretty hard to quantify. No one is taking over spaces. Theyre taking up their space rightfully, AND, so should we.
There's plenty of nonbinary spaces and they choose to go into ftm spaces. I tried going to a transgender group irl and it was all transmasc nonbinaries who presented entirely feminine
Idk maybe there should be more spaces for ftm folks explicitly excluding nb folks at this point? That seems pretty fair to me. I see this a bit (entirely feminine presenting nb "transmasc" ppl) and it does frustrate me but where I live it's less of an issue irl where there just magically like no transmen, so I guess hard to imagine. but also thinking abt the fact a lot of people cant, wont, or dont know how to transition despite being ftm...? idk. its hard for me to throw everyone under the bus like that. still stand by that the 90% thing is bs.
Yes, because teenage girls going through their self-exploratory hopping onto fads phases are quite common in society. Always have been, itās just been different fads over the generations. The emo craze of the early 2000s, now itās the GNC / FtN stuff. Transsexualism, on the other hand, is quite uncommon. Always has been. Hence there being so many less transsexual men compared to self-identified FtN non-binaries. Teenage boys typically donāt have the same āI need to be different and uniqueā phases that teenage girls often have, generally boys more so want to fit in to the crowd rather than be ānot like the other boysā like the ānot like the other girlsā trope. Hence MtN non-binaries not being as common, and therefore not overtaking transsexual women the same way FtN nonbinaries overtake transsexual men. Also, transsexual men generally blend in to society quite well, compounding this even more.
Its a pretty controversial take but I agree quite a bit with you. Being trans has *multiple times* been some sort of fads. Usually we end up with a wave of angry detransitioners every few years or so because of it. I would say 2016 and 2020 were big years for teens coming out as trans. There is a very disproportionate amount of AFAB teenagers coming out as some sort of trans, if someone is denying it theyāre probably that demographic or not paying much attention. (*And let me be clear: there is nothing wrong with exploring oneās identity. The newly out teens just usually are the most obnoxious since theyāre excited about their new label.*) ā¦But on the flip side of that, like you said, teenage AMAB people tend to prefer to try and fit in with the crowd which is also why we donāt see many MtF or MtN teenagers.
Detransition is absolutely a thing that happens, but what few studies have been done on it point towards the social pressures of being trans and a loss of community driving it, not a lack of being trans. Teens being obnoxious about who they are isn't anything new, but transphobes (not saying you're one) tend to trot out these talking points about people being pushed into being trans that don't bear out when you dig into the data.
I absolutely agree that transphobes tend to abuse these talking points. Its one of the easiest ones for them to use since there is quite a few people who have been the fad-type that are now speaking out aggressively against trans folks. Its a cheap and easy one for them to latch onto and have some sort of source to back it up. I donāt think the topic of teens being trans as a trend is one to be ignored, but the current climate of the world vs trans people, putting energy into the actual conversation just gives transphobes fuel right now, so itās probably a good thing we donāt give it much attention. All in all, doesnāt matter it someone is just experimenting or has been out for years, I respect them regardless.
Iāve read many detransition narratives and I havenāt found any that I would consider the fad type. Apart from those who detransitioned due to social or political pressures (e.g. getting drawn into TERF ideology, disowned by family, fired from their jobs), or where transition failed to live up to their hopes (e.g. those who despaired at never being āreal menā and gave up), some of them were just failed by their doctors who were in turn failed by the continued ignorance around trans issues. I found it striking that many of them never had an actual desire to be male. One who grew up in a highly conservative area said she wished someone had told her it was ok to be a girl who was masculine and liked girls, but no one ever told her that and so she thought that transitioning was the only way to find acceptance. Others were using transition as escapism from past sexual trauma. Thereās nothing trendy about that.
I donāt consider it disproportionate at all when comparing their numbers to that of female-presenting AFAB adults I know in their 40s, 50s or 60s whom Iām pretty sure would have identified as some flavor of non-binary had they been born a generation or two later. When I first came out, I had an older female friend message me about how they had also never felt right as a woman, but it was too late now, though they still wondered how their life may have been. I also had a couple of teachers who strongly tripped my transdar, masc-presenting, unisex nicknames, living as (straight) women but whom I can easily imagine being repressed gay trans men or NB.
It's true that it happens more on girls to explore themselves but I don't think that's a gender thing but more like society being less bothered by girls doing it instead of guys cause I think deep down the world still doesn't take women seriously
I mean I agree that thereās probably numerous factors playing into it, but the reason is kind of irrelevant here. The fact that the trope is more common among teenage girls still remains, and I think plays a large role in explaining why thereās so many more self-proclaimed FtN non-binaries compared to MtN non-binaries. Which further explains why FtN is drowning out FtM way more than MtN is drowning out MtF.
A far larger role is that it is actively dangerous for AMAB people to express any femininity or gender non-conformity, let alone trans identity. I know plenty of nominally cis guys whom I imagine would identify as NB if the risks didnāt far outweigh any possible reward. Likewise, a large driver of that trope among teen girls who may or may not be cis is that femininity and womanhood continue to be devalued and denigrated in society, not teen girls being frivolous and wanting to be different for the fun of it. Wanting to be ānot like other girlsā is often at least partly driven by wanting to be treated with the same basic respect that their male peers have, in the case of cis girls, and that plus dysphoria in the case of trans boys and non-binary youths. It also doesnāt logically translate into adopting a trans identity, as seen in the many trans girls who also say theyāre not like other girls but very much identify as such.
This comment reeks of gross misogyny
āmiĀ·sogĀ·yĀ·ny: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.ā Point me towards what you think suggests I have a dislike of or prejudice against women, please. Because merely recognizing that there are different frequencies of certain characteristics in teenage male social groups vs teenage female social groups isnāt any such thing, itās just an observation of statistical reality. Kind of like how recognizing females have a higher rate of breast cancer isnāt misogynistic, or males a higher rate of violence isnāt misandristic, etcetera. Let people recognize that there are sometimes statistical differences in different groups without automatically accusing them of prejudice, please. Itās ridiculous.
That's all nice and good, except you specifically brought out the tired "transtrenders" bullshit that gets levied against non-binary people, particularly AFAB non-binary people. It's all rooted in not taking trans people seriously about their identities. If somebody is exploring their identity, and ends up trans, great! If someone is exploring and ends up cis, great! Either way, they learned about themselves, and either way, it's unproductive (and harmful) to ridicule people for their growth. The younger generation is going to have it a lot easier than we did. Fucking good. I want being trans to become unremarkable. I want it to be something you can just be, without society's judgments or disbelief. That will never happen, but we sure as shit don't have to add to the pile.
Is there anywhere for masculine binary straight ftm men to go? Any groups or chats or apps? A place that doesn't hate men ?
Definitely, we are being drowned and driven out of our own spaces. With that I feel is also the onslaught of shaming actual masculinity. No wonder trans men aren't too visible in the community then; real men are hated and driven out of these spaces.
I have a few thoughts on this: 1) I think it statistically makes sense that there would be more non binary people than binary trans people, itās a large umbrella of identities 2) the past several years trans identities have become more well known so more people have discovered themselves 3) alternatively more people are exploring their gender and while they may not end up being trans, are currently in the middle of learning more about themselves, this is not a bad thing 3.5) itās is more socially acceptable for afab people to explore masculinity than it is for amab people to explore femininity, hence the larger amount of afab nonbinary people 4) binary trans men shoot themselves in the foot on this, we canāt have a community if no one wants to acknowledge their transness or be open about it. The majority of binary men go stealth, and abandon the community to a degree, sometimes entirely. Sometimes even keeping it hidden from other irl trans people theyāre friends with. Our already smaller numbers seem even smaller. 5) in contrast to how binary men tend to go stealth, non-binary people donāt get that luxury. We have the option to silently be recognized as our gender once we pass and go through life without really having to come out. Nonbinary people donāt get to pass. They must always out themselves if they want even the chance to be gendered correctly. So of course the group that is forced out in the open is the one that seems the largest and the loudest, unless theyāre fine with being always misgendered there is no other option. The solution is one I donāt think people will want to do, but if we want community in being binary trans men, then we have to break the culture of going stealth we have. I know people do it for comfort and for safety, and I respect that. I also think thereās a degree of cowardice about it when I think of all the people who donāt have the luxury of passing and going stealth who continue to be trans and transition and be out, loud, and proud and do community organizing for the greater good. And then compare that to all the trans men whoād rather just blend into society and not challenge the system that hurts us. For every stealth-for-safety man in a conservative trans hostile area, there is an out and open trans person trying and fighting for their life and right to exist that benefits us all in the end.
This is so interesting to me, my friend who is queer, used to ID as nonbinary- but after seeing so many people ID as nonbinary and then transition to a binary gender (this includes me I went from nonbinary to ftm) he stopped using this label. He uses queer now, but just feels invalid because of this trend in his space- he knows he shouldn't let it affect him but yanno. That being said, I do know more nonbinary people than trans- my sibling is nb, and another friend of mine is transmasc (used to be ftm).
Real
I think that not being welcome in queer spaces is part of it. I am not visibly trans. Making other people uncomfortable makes me uncomfortable. A lot of people see me in trans spaces and don't assume I'm trans. That can make them uncomfortable. I hate being on the outside of things and being out of the out group is even worse, so it's better just to not participate. This is coming from someone who was vice-president of my college's GSA-- and the only trans man in the group. I think that a lot of passing guys feel the same. FTM spaces don't really exist off the internet because of transphobia and because there is an increase in trans people who aren't binary who make a majority of trans spaces (Which is good!!! Everyone should be allowed to play with or ignore gender to their comfort level!).
TERF pressure to young people online is very big right now. Just give it time, I guess.
I'm 17 and a lot of adults who've known me longer refer to me as 'they' even tho i'm openly presenting as male and not everyone even knows im not a cis guy. idk if thats related but i find it interesting that people assume differently.
Dude same, everyone at work refers to me as ātheyā aside from one angel of a manager I have. It makes me cringe. Some days Iām alright with they/them, but I donāt consider myself to identify with those pronouns. Iām a binary transsexual male, thatās all. I hate being seen as less than that.
My boyfriend and I have talked about this before many times and our sort of kinda-asshole-petty-not-that-serious conclusion is many people liking the aesthetics of manhood but not actually wanting to deal with any of the actual man-experience. So instead of being a man they just go with masc nonbinary lmao But on a more serious note, I think a lot of trans men just prefer to not interact too much with queer spaces. In my experience a lot of queer spaces already talk a lot of shit about men and ridicule them regularly so to me and Iām sure others itās not a very welcoming place once youāve gone passed the early transition phases. Its especially annoying when queer spaces like to try and categorize trans men as anything other than men. There are plenty of trans men in the world, theyāre just not as outspoken as the rest of the trans community.
I think that human sexuality is extremely complex and as time goes on, it's going to become more diverse because there are more places for people to explore and experiment with their gender identity, so maybe some groups that were lumped together will morph into their own thing and thus less folx will be in the original group.
Yes because of cis girls faking being trans. Itās a trend for girls to fake various illnesses and disorders on social media and itās a trend to be trans. Transmasc is a meaningless term so itās very easy for them to appropriate being trans under the term.
Agreed šš»
please do remember that the M in FTM stands for āmaleā, not āmisogynistā.
Tell that to the non-binaries on the ftm sub
Lol true
How was anything I said misogynistic?
Your point was that girls/women enjoy faking serious conditions for the attention, which surely you can tell is pretty sexist, dismissive and condescending. Plus the claim that being trans is a trend, but somehow only girls are silly/desperate enough to fall for it while boysā¦ have the sensibility and strength of character not to? Iām not sure what other non-sexist rationale you would have for that claim.
Thatās not sexist or condescending Itās a documented fact. Nearly everyone that fakes medical issues and mental disorders are female. Being trans has become a trend. Boys fake being stronger and more able than they are and face stricter gender roles. They have little to gain from faking being trans. Men fake things like military service and degrees. Things that give honor and prestige.
I did some googling; the facts seem to disagree. From NHS UK: > āThere appear to be 2 separate groups of people affected by Munchausen syndrome. They are: >- women who are 20 to 40 years of age, often with a background in healthcare >- unmarried white men who are 30 to 50 years of ageā Another source, this time an academic paper: > āPeople with (factitious disorders) tend to be women aged 20 to 40 years and employed in medical fields, such as nursing or medical technology. Persons with chronic FD (Munchausen's syndrome) tend to be unmarried, middle-aged men who are estranged from their families.ā WebMD: > āIn general, Munchausen syndrome is more common in men than in women. While it can occur in children, it most often affects young adults.ā Iāve found nothing suggesting it is particularly common in teenage girls. There was [this](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/000992280504400307?journalCode=cpja) case study on teenage girls who faked illnesses, but some did so to avoid going to school while the others did so as a result of genuine mental disorders. Do you have sources suggesting otherwise?
Damn š¤£ I am stealing this for later
Right? This is blatantly and unrepentantly misogynist.
Ok TERFer.
I couldnāt be farther from being a TERF. You likely believe the same concept of gender that is TERFism Is rooted in.
Downvoters, I get that calling another trans person a TERF is a lot, but sometimes people earn that shit. The "AFAB non-binary people are just doing it for the attention" line is **straight out of the TERF playbook**. We don't get a pass to be fuckheads just because we're trans.
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I don't think tomboys take testosterone
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i am not comfortable being called trans masc
Me neither. I always say trans man or just ftm, trans masc just doesn't seem to fit right. Possibly because many people thought I was nonbinary when I first came out and it really bothered me for a while. To me, being called nonbinary is almost the equivalent of being called a woman. Anyone else feel the same?
I'm sorry but I've never been comfy with being called trans masc. I am a man of trans experience and that's it š¤·āāļø
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You don't need to copy spam this. Yes, we are trans and transitioning with masculanising hormones to a masculine presentation. Many people would consider us transmasc. But for many people, the label of transmasc doesn't feel right them. Just as for many people the label of transexual or queer or gender-nonconforming may not be comfortable for them. They can all be accurate descriptors, but the way they are used can change and some people may not feel comfortable with them. Transmasc is a large term that can encompass anyone who's AFAB from demigirls to genderfluid people to non-binary individuals to demiboys to transmen. Since it's such a large term, many people may not have shared identities and experiences with everyone in that group. As a transman, my experience is very different to someone who may be AFAB and genderfluid, and as such, I prefer not to group myself as transmasc. Many people also have started to use the term transmasc as its own seperate label to mean someone who is AFAB and transitioning into a masculine person, but not a man. It is a label. It may be a label inclusive of transmen, but not all transmen connect to or identify personally with the label
Lmao I was in the middle of a good fucking response too and they dip out š
Nope. We're not "masc". We're men, plain and simple.
Trans masc has become a distinct identity for some, and a lot of trans men do not consider themselves to be a "subset" of trans masc nor under the trans masc umbrella. I experience trans men and trans masc as distinct identities/experiences, and personally do not consider myself "trans masc." I'm a man who happens to be trans.
Little sick of this umbrella term being forced on us and stripping us of our manhood. We arent simply just "masc", we're men. And I don't want to be lumped in a group that apparently accepts lesbians, or a group thats rarely even ""masc" to begin with...
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Defensive because, unlike what you state at the end of this comment, you are absolutely labeling us all as transmasc. Not sure how anyone could read your comments as saying anything other than that. You're not going to find many people in support of that term being used for binary ftms in a binary ftm subreddit. "To transition to be more masculine" highly debatable when you really take a look at the presentations of the people who use this term to describe themselves, but whatever And no, butch lesbians are butch lesbians. They're not transitioning to become men. To be /male/. Not masculine. Masculine is not a sex. Has the definition of trans really been diluted that much? That people who aren't transitioning and changing their sex to male (or want to, because I know that'll be brought up too as a "gotcha" because medica issues etc etc) are somehow the same as us? You're lumping women in with us men (who have fought very hard to not be considered women, by the way) and expect me not to be kind of defensive. Right now I kind of loathe how the term transsexual has become less popular... Edit: you're seriously copy and pasting your reply over and over, jesus christ
Im a gender queer man one can be a man and nonbinary but honestly I think if I alredy passsed maybe I would also avoid mentioning Im trans. Ppl they me just bcs I look trans but donāt pass is anoying
hey! i dont mean to be that guy, but please use the word "trans men" nor "transmen". transmen is a word pushed by terfs as a subtle way to be transphobic by making it seem like theres a difference between trans men and cis men, to make it seem like being a man is different than being a transman by making it a different noun rather than a different adjective