There's really no other word for this other than disgusting. It really shows the regime's desperate grasp for power. To force someone cold, starving, and with certainty of dying to stay and die is beyond comprehension to me. I really feel for the soldiers who were forced to join and ended up there. The commanders should be executed on the spot.


The fact that people have such blind allegiance to Putin that they’re willing to sacrifice their lives is something I could never wrap my head around. He gives absolutely zero fucks about anyone’s life.


Well, I don’t think that’s why they’re doing it. I think they’re just trying to avoid getting killed today themselves.


But they Are getting killed en masse anyway. A nation of people that rather die while shooting civilians, than fighting for freedom. There shouldn't be any mercy for them.


People said the same thing about my step-father in Vietnam. He lived in America and was left little choice with the draft. I think a lot of people talk big about freedom while judging people who never had the power to change things. Personally, I think it’s all of our fault collectively for not taking advantage of the fall of the USSR and ensuring Russia developed democratic/modern institutions.


The difference is that In the US people acknowledged it was a fucked up war and protested the hell out of it the whole time, then used democratic elections to put different guys in office.


The difference you’re not acknowledging is it was protected in the US. In Russia they’re still protesting and getting sent to the front as criminals. Apples and oranges.


I mean it didn’t help the Kent state protesters but…


Fair point. I protested the Iraq war. It’s never safe.


I’m not disagreeing with you or anything- all of your protections and laws last exactly as long as the patience of the armed man in front of you.


A lot of people definitely judge others with moral certainty without thinking what they’ll do if given the same choices. As much as many think they’ll risk their lives (or even just their own comfort) to do the right things, most will simply follow the path of least resistance and obey.


Calm down there killer


I doubt they have that allegiance. The mentality seems to be that politics is something to stay out of and you don't want any trouble in your life. That's why they duck away all the time. Then they're drafted. They still duck and think nothing will happen. Then they get sent to the front without training. Suddenly they are in a trench with guns pointed at them from both sides. So they duck until they die


If I’m going to most likely die on the battlefield, I’d rather just surrender immediately and deal with those consequences.


How do you get a chance to surrender without getting killed by your comrades in the first place? Standing up and walking to the Ukrainian line is quite noticeable. Then you also can’t just walk up to the Ukrainian line without the chance of getting sniped before you even get to announce your surrender. They don’t know what to do so they just choose what they do know, stay and try and survive.


Eh when you are in the trench already, it's too late. The likelihood of being able to surrender is low, because you're still optimistic until it hits you. And it might come out of nowhere. Why did people not rebel in the gruesome battles of the Western Front in WW1? It was clear that the chance to survive it were minimal. And the public strategy of the German military was to have these meat grinder battles because they believed they had more cannon fodder than France. Not unlike the Russian rationale. It wasn't a democratic system either


Cannon fodder strategy was the bread and butter of the Allies. They had far more manpower than Germany. Germany had less casualties from most battles but they were just outnumbered and running out of supplies.


Yet Falkenhayn chose attrition strategy. It was just that the Germans had better artillery and initially the better coordinated and trained army. (Talking about western front not the eastern front)


That's very much the mindset. Russians have been trained for the last 30 years at minimum to ignore politics and ignore everything the Kremlin does. Apathy helps Putin stay in power.


Indeed. Russians having a strong notion of 'being a strong ethnic Russian' is something of an oxymoron. They're a servile people and always have been.




A lot of the Russian people don’t support the war dude. They arnt a monolith any more than the us is


Maybe 20-30% of Russians don't support the war, but ultimately they don't oppose it either.


"Russia is such a brutal police state you'll be disappeared for so much as questioning authority. Also why aren't Russian citizens doing more?"


Scared and brainwashed for decades


At this point it's a legit question


Left a trail of whooosh in your wake my friend


Not paying taxes is a first good step. There are ways to do it legally you know. Leaving a job in critical infrastructure sector is an option. They may force one to stay, then becoming unproductive is an option. There are many options that most russians won't take because of selfishness. And look where they ended up now. Saving a dime now costs 10 in the future 8n this case.


Patently untrue. About 20-30% are very against the war, but do not have a venue or real method to voice or effect change for those opinions. They know what happens if they become too vocal against the regime. About 50% of the population is apathetic and have internally outsourced their politics to the Kremlin in exchange for the Kremil leaving them alone with their lives (novel idea compared to Soviet Times). This is a product of a highly engineered propaganda system. If you interviewed one of these guys in the street you would get the sense they support the war when really they know little about it and are effectively just saying "yeah the government knows what it's doing", and then they try to scurry away. The other 20-30% are the rabid imperialist/nationalist/pro-war contingent. They are very loud, given a platform and protected by the Kremlin. The USA also has a nutty 25% that would welcome authoritarian tendencies or to go on a conquest war with Muslim countries. You just need to listen to any ex-russian political scientist who has vacated to the west and they all say the same thing about these numbers. The story is much mroe complex than it seems, and the average redditor should bear a bit more sympathy for a population that is helpless and being taken on a sadistic ride with little recourse.


I must say, you’re using words to great effect and stellar approach. Unfortunately, the average-Redditor goes by headlines first and then BuzzFeed or Quora articles as last resort.


How do you know they don't oppose it? Are you Russian?


No protests even outside the country. People from all countries protests in favor of Ukraine. Where are the Russians outside of Russia showing support? Seems like silence to me




Here in Toronto we had many Russian nationals join Ukrainians in their protests.


It is very hard to protest against an oppressive state that has a reputation of prisoning people for many years simply because they showed up at a rally. It's easy for us in the "western world" to judge Russians for not storming the streets when we have the liberty to do and say basically anything without any fear of being imprisoned for 10 years. Should Russians do something? Yes. Would I go to riots and rallies if I could be sentenced to prison? Most likely not. It's not a black and white thing.


When does it end through? What you describe is cowardice subjugated by the cruelty of a terrorist state. You and I both know this only ends for them through protest and violent upheaval. To everyone that hides behind that reason, fight like your childrens’ lives depend on it.


If you're a single mother who goes to protest and you get imprisoned, what happens to your kid? Are you ready to take that risk? There are many ways how this war could end, if it's a coup, Putin kicks the bucket or Ukraine chases Russia out of Ukraine, we do not know yet.


There have been several lone gunmen shooting up conscription offices, but that's about it. Also shootouts involving the FSB. It didn't make the news though, because that would shatter the illusion of total support of the invasion, and Putin really needs the world to hate Russians right now, because there is no way anyone is gonna listen to him unless he is the only option people have. For legal reasons all I've said is satire and fake news btw


I’m confused what you think the stakes are for Russian citizens. Economic downturn? Russians are used to that. Possibility of losing your conscripted male family members? Plenty avoided that already by fleeing, and the overall vast majority of the population won’t be directly affected by the drafts. Loss of soft power and global humiliation? That’s not something civilians throw their lives away for. Russians aren’t motivated to riot just as they aren’t motivated to fight in Ukraine. Most are isolated from the actual war itself and will never see bloodshed. The nukes guarantee that. The Russian people want to look away while the government wraps this up quickly.


And what would that do? Nothing, except maybe to their families at home. Think with your brain, not your dick.


For one thing, it would show they oppose the Russia war.


That doesnt help anyone, them included. But since you have no idea what living in a totalitarian regime means, I can understand how you wanna play the hero on reddit. Not that you're doing much else. With that hero complex, instead of saying an entire nation is evil, maybe you would make a donation to the war effort. But you know, that wouldnt be as easy as making a comment showing your "support" and calling it a day. I guess making a comment "I dont support this, I protest" on reddit is all that takes, right? Not only are you despicable, you're also a hypocrite. Every nation has people in it, mine, yours, everyone. And rest assured, if your leaders decided to be cunts, you'd face the same sentiment. And as a former citizen of a totalitarian regime, I know exactly what you would do. Nothing. Because you would shit your pants to say anything due to the very real and horrific consequences that entails. You were lucky to grow up in a nice country. You do not have a right to judge and if you think you do, you're no better than any of these cunts. To be more direct, that means that you yourself mate, are a cunt.


> That doesnt help anyone, them included. In your opinion, is there any path for Russian people to a just and democratic government? Or it cannot be helped? FWIW, I was born in the USSR, and do donate to Ukraine, and for refugee support in my country every month.


This is such bullshit.


I'd like everyone to give sources


The sanest comment I've read in this thread


I mean yeah, but the vast majority of them are the usual garbage nationalists responsible for everything bad thats happening in the world




Jesus Christ what is it with Redditors and these bloodlusty takes about Russian people as a whole. Guess what Russians are? People, just like you.


It’s not individuals, it’s government and policy. Remember in 2002 when Chechen militants held 700 theatre-goers in Moscow hostage? So the government gassed the theater, killing 130 of the hostages itself? If a government does enough things like that, the country gets a reputation.


[Remember when the Russian security services bombed several apartment buildings in Russia in order to bring Putin to power?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings)


I agree with you. Unfortunately many people on Reddit seem to think that there is something inherent to Russians which makes them evil.


It's Russian despair. It's a core part of their society, always has been. Yeah, there are Russians who are good people but the vast majority of them don't care about what happens to Ukraine and are pretty bigoted towards Ukrainians. If they riot or snyrhing it'll be because they get fed up and angry at how they're being treated. Given how shit living in Russia is it's just easier for them to be that way.


It’s just so funny because there isn’t a single other group of people that liberals would be willing to talk about like this.


*while on the topic of generalizing...* Am liberal. I do not talk about russians like this.


Switch out "liberal" with "ukrainian" and then it's not so funny because we're just talking about how they treat us.


Bruh what


Wild how you people try to erase the existence of Russian bigotry towards us Ukrainians.


The irony of calling Russians bigoted while being extremely bigoted towards them… lol


Yeah no calling out their bigotry towards Ukrainians doesn't make a person a bigot nice try Edit; it's wild how people crawl out from under rocks to desperately try to pretend Russian systemic bigotry against Ukrainians hasn't been a thing for like a century




I don't think that's what people are saying. It's not something "inherent", it's something that's been accepted.


Yeah I don’t agree I think a lot of people here lack that nuance


The guy above literally said that Russians are subhuman monsters.


I think certain behaviors that seem to be widely accepted by the Russian people and troops can be described as monstrous, but I'd call them plain old human for that.


Yes, Russians are people, but there are some distinct cultural differences between the Russian perspective on human rights and the one we have in the West. The Russian people have spent the last 100+ years (and centuries before that) living in an absolutely brutal system that places little value on human life and a huge emphasis on power and politics. In the Soviet (and post-Soviet) system, the only way to get ahead has been through political connections, which are built by demonstrating loyalty and "results" against arbitrarily planned centralized quotas. Oftentimes, the only way to get "results" is to either lie, abuse the people you work with, or both. Honesty and respect for others can downright dangerous. When you put generations of people through such a system, you select for the most ruthless and callous people to survive (and thrive and become the leaders).


I cannot stop laughing this has made my night, thank you your lack of self awareness (if you are American). Happy Thanksgiving!


If I made an example using another race to show these people how insane they sound I’d get banned. Truly bizarre, eye opening, revolting and yeah kinda funny. And I’m sure many of these people think those that got angry at muslims after 9/11 are racist despite doing the same to Russians.


Bruv, dont even try. These people think because a country's leader is a dipshit, everyone in the country is evil too. God forbid they fear for their lives, their families' lives or retaliation even from their western "colleagues". People like the dude you replied to aren't any better than Putin. Speech like that is pure evil and has nothing to do with democracy, democratic values or human rights in general. These are just some fat maniacs in their basement saying what they would do if they stopped eating cheetos.


Completely agreed.


You can tell what kind of person someone really is based on how they talk about "acceptable" targets tbh


Unfortunately the polls say otherwise. From the polls this year we've seen 40-60% support the war for various reasons, like the NATO expansion talking point, or "Ukraine is Russia". They have a fucking problem and now Ukrainians are suffering for it.


And we all know that polls in dictatorship countries lack any bias whatsoever.


Good point seeing as we know no country could ever match the accuracy of Russian polling, as nobody in Russia lives in fear of the government and the Russian government has never lied about anything before!


leave it to reddit to create the most unhinged and racist takes possible under the guise of “anti-war pacifism”


The Russian people can’t do a damned thing about it. Even in the US, we pretty much have zero effect on politicians when they want a war. During Iraq I can tell you ‘freedom of speech’ felt like a pointless farce. It’s easy to see how generations of that would turn people into stunned automatons.


I’m sure the Czars thought the same thing. But they died in a basement so who knows.


Technically that was a power struggle between the Bolsheviks and White Army, Lenin was afraid they would be used as puppets by the White Army and ordered the Romanovs to be executed. Nicholas ll was long out of power when he died.


Idk why you went for the “technically”, the two parties you mentioned were still just Russian people to the Czars.


Uh no, Bolsheviks controlled Western Russia and the Whites controlled Eastern Russia. When the Provisonal Government collapsed, multiple factions sought to consolidate control and getting rid of the Tsar as a figurehead was part of that.


Still just Russian people to the Czars. Lol


The cultural helplessness is what makes Russians complacent. Can’t do anything so I guess I’ll go to the front and shoot Ukrainians. Oh we are powerless let me keep bombing Ukrainians since we can’t do anything.


I have a good friend who is Russian and lives in St Petersburg. He would give you the shirt off your back if you needed it. This is a gross mischaracterization of all Russians.


Anecdotal evidence doesn't really cut it when you see the constant atrocities and support for the war.


Anecdotal evidence doesn’t cut it but “all Russians are XYZ” does? I have no problem with Ukraine defending itself and hope they devastate Russian invaders. But labeling 143 million people as a monolith is the other side of the dehumanizing coin which allows humans to kill each other with such ease. No, some Russians support the war and some don’t. Perhaps they don’t show their opposition to the war in the way you want them to or the way you imagine you would, but they also grew up in a different world and have a different set of norms.


You are helping Putin's propaganda by spreading this opinion. Specifically, the part that aims to persuade Russians opposing war that they are few. That their neighbors would lynch them the moment they show any public disapproval. Putin needs that to strangle even a thought of unrest. And you are helping.


You see constant support for war because in Russia, if you don't support it, you go to prison. There were rallies and protests. Most of the people who went there ended up in jail. Guess if you were beaten once you wouldn't want to get beaten again.


Irrelevant statistics.


That army is already lost for a long time. One reason people go forward to fight is because they know somebody will bring them home and you know you are fighting against a threat to your home and family. Russians will eventually understand this was a war of choice, their military was abandoned in the field, they were shot when trying to get out of harms way and will never consider entering military service again. Good luck trying to raise another military after this fiasco without a draft and mass conscription which will give you the worst military outcomes possible.


Lol, their totally not a war is becoming a civil war. Bravo, Putin.


No poltical divisions, this is just extra judicial punishment on the battlefield. And Russians are too weak to fight back.


Yeah.... the real war is Putin vs mortality. It's a war within his own skull. And real lives are being lost over it. This is his grasp at a legacy, maybe?


Pretty much. Putin has a real love of Imperial Russia had been positioning himself to be a new Tzar. He even has the image of the dual-headed eagle installed in his no-bullshit palace. Taking Ukraine was supposed to be his first conquest in reforming the old Empire. Obviously this is not going to plan, and he’s spiraling. His ego is being battered like he’s never experienced before and narcissists CANNOT handle that. He wanted to carve his name into history, and he will, but not in the way he had hopes.




Civil special military operation.


A civil war that's fought on enemy territory. Another amazing achievement unlocked


This has become a USSR civil war months ago


It’s like their performance in WWII, but without the good cause or endgame, the US support and logistics, and no hope of victory.


There was a bit of a difference. Germany actually invaded Russia so there was will to fight. There’s no will to fight for many of these soldiers though.


yeah as they said "no good cause"


It's worth pointing out that there's no evidence of Enemy at the Gates style 'machine gunning more of their own soldiers than the enemy.' The NKVD blocking units main job was to steer soldiers back to the front line. *Officers* might get executed (usually after a show trial,) but the Soviet Union often suffered major manpower shortages. They couldn't really afford to throw away lives for nothing.


Or training


In fairness to Stalin, it is unlikely there was any other way. Sending millions to die so that millions more live was unavoidable even if Stalin had done a better job preparing for the war. (He, um, kinda thought Hitler wasn't serious about invading)


I mean from Stalin's perspective Hitler invading was a surefire way to lose the war in Europe, opening another front like that would suicide. And well that's what happened. They just assumed Germany saw that outcome as well. But they wanted to blitz them like they did Europe before Russia could form a formidable offensive of their own. They didn't really respect how much land there would be to cover in Russia so the supply lines became an increasingly exposed issue.


In fairness? To Stalin??




Most Germans died on the Eastern Front though, I wouldn't go that one sided.


More like: his waves of Red Army soldiers kept the nazis tied up enough to allow the brutal Russian winter to kill the nazis.


To be fair that was also Hitler's fuck-up and german logistics that didn't prepare them for that brutal of a winter


You might want to look at the way you worded that, because it comes off as the Russian's just held the line while America and England did most of the heavy lifting. Stalin's fuck ups cost Russia a shit ton of unnecessary lives, but they did way more then just tie them up.


Not saying there was a way to avoid losing millions of troops, but the Russian strategy could have been a lot better and not result in so many deaths.


Russian politicians don’t put a lot of value in Russian lives. their losses in this war so far have been staggering. And they’re not doing anything to improve the situation for the soldiers. Sending them to the front line with no training or officers? they’re going to get tore up. it’s going to be a bloodbath for those newly mobilized soldiers. And since they put such little value in life they barely have any soldiers with experience to lead or train them.


Ukraine was also allied with them in WWII.




I remember this video in Russia of a journalist asking villagers what they thought of Ukraine. 1 drunk villager said what we all expect some to say. But I won’t forget this one older lady’s response when asked; that during the USSR, “you say nothing, and you survive”. She did not give a comment on Ukraine.


And that was brave for her to say even that. You have to believe that most people that feel that way would just say whatever is expected of them.


>what we all expect What’s that?


Well, I was presuming the usual imperialist state propaganda combined with a hefty dose of bigotry.




Maybe I should have said “some of us”


This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.ibtimes.com/russian-troops-fire-own-soldiers-while-retreating-some-abandoned-without-food-3639738) reduced by 71%. (I'm a bot) ***** > A group of mobilized Russian men from the city of Serpukhov has accused Moscow's army of firing at them while they were retreating from their positions. > In a video message published by the VChK-OGPU Telegram channel, the group of survivors said they were sent to the village of Makiivka in the Luhansk region despite not having any training and only being given "Armor used for airsoft games." The group later said they were shelled by their own side while retreating, causing heavy losses in their unit. > Since Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the "Partial mobilization" of reservists in September, many soldiers and their relatives have come forward to accuse the Russian army of being unable to provide its conscripts with proper gear. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/z3aa73/russian_troops_fire_at_own_soldiers_while/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672678 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **video**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **group**^#3 **army**^#4 **come**^#5


Rinse, Wash, Stalingrad, and repeat.


More like Finland.


"If you won't die for the Tsar over there you will die over here!"


Is anyone surprised at this point?


No this was specifically on my bingo card


I just need Putin ass knifed for a bingo


"The killings will continue until morale improves!" "They're uh, all dead sir." "Ah, well then, good job recruits. You've successfully learned to not retreat from the enemy!"


Didn’t I see this in the “enemy at the gates”? This must be the most shameful act an army could do beside genocide


Putin is revolting. Cancer has been too ko d to him


I can’t even imagine what these soldiers are going through. One day you’re just walking home from the bank then they scoop you up and throw you on a bus. Go to a Barricks get a change of clothes, try and find a sleeping bag and winter clothes for sale. Then before you know it, its three days later you’re on the front fucking line. No orders, no officers in the unit, they abandon you without food or water. That’s fucked up shit Then the body “armor” they have is Airsoft. No training on how to take cover from artillery so they get demolished. They’ve got 60 year old equipment that they don’t even know how to use. I’ve heard they have huge stock piles of drones but nobody’s trained on how to use them or any of the other equipment they have. Ukraine needs to start shelling them with surrender papers more often. Why would you fight for a country that does that to you. With a war that you don’t even care about and will not benefit from in the future.


Putin pulling a Stalin move


Gurss the implemented the Not A Step Back order


What year is it?




Moving towards 1917... For Russia anyway.


Unfortunately history repeats itself.


Wow, I didn’t think they could go any lower


They don’t need food where they’re going… cannon fodder after all.


I thought this was the plot to Enemy At The Gates.. then I realized it was real


So basically the [scene from Enemy at the Gates in Stalingrad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQVsqQcFxg&t=248s). I see Putin values his own people as much as Stalin did.


"We do not leave our own (sometimes)"


Gotta increase their kill count somehow


This reminds me of WWI tactics. Cold, starving, no material left, no morale, and still being shot at by your own commander while retreat is ordered.


Going full Stalin I see.


Remember when the Russians had a 1 gun per 5 people rule?


Never happened. Glantz talks about this in 'When Titans Clashed' and theorizes that the story originated when the Germans broke through Soviet lines at Stalingrad and encountered a depot unit, basically civilians drafted to take care of logistics stuff who weren't expected to do any fighting.


I suppose if we take into all the support people who aren't expected to hold a fire arm. It's probably reasonable to have 1 gun per 5 people. Just not like what ever movie I'm remembering... Behind enemy lines or some shit.


Literally a myth but ok


Really? Holly wood lied to us? Hmmm.


*The starving and murder will continue until morale improves!* The biggest ally of the Ukrainian military often seems to be the Russian military. Not only the biggest donor of several kinds of equipment and ammunition, but a major contributor to enemy casualties. "Oh, you missed shooting these guys? No problem, we fixed that."


The starving might be explainable-ish in context, Russian logistics are a dumpster fire right now. But you can’t just shoot or she’ll or own people


Shellings will continue until morale improves.


Commander Cody, the time has come. Execute order 227.


This must be terrifying for those people.


First reported some 6 months ago, and posted many times in both the live thread and individual posts. Not many times though that the greater evil vs clickbait is the actual story.


Desertion is death under military court!




Yes, that has always worked very well in the past. Iraq and Afghanistan are such well adjusted, functional countries now.




You love to see it.


It's only going to get worse as the cold sets in.


Russians have really none to blame but themselves.