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tornadicbehavior

Hmm, not enough information, honestly. I'd need to see everyone's teams to be able to formulate more of an opinion.


Xzzorio

Oh for sure, the different kinds of and levels of "canon" make finding a solid conclusion to stuff like this impossible. Just a fun thought experiment.


Xzzorio

My Take: Story/Lore wise: Mega timeline - Red Non mega timeline - Ethan/Red Gamelogic wise: Elio or Hilbert Honorable Mentions: Lucas, Lucas defeated the strongest legendary during his journey lorewise. Victor, victor canonically defeated Leon who is (I think) stated to be the world's strongest trainer.


LoyalistLewis

Yeah you’re bang on here especially with victor and his whole having beat the “Unbeatable champion “


Dasamont

I think Red also counts as an "unbeatable champion". Didn't he go to Mt. Silver because he got bored of being the champion?


LoyalistLewis

Yeah true I was thinking red was beaten by lance forgetting he retired


Obility

Isn't that headcanon or a fan theory? Also I feel like people forget that they beat red. So Ethan/Lya/Crystal would surpass him.


Bwyattvirtue13

Yes this raises the question for me who is the stronger trainer Red or Leon?


SadisticBuddhist

I always thought Leon was the unbeatable champion in the same way Rhonda Rhousy used to be undefeated? Not that he had traveled around and proven his strength worldwide?


Xzzorio

I dont really know, in the games he's never seen going worldwide but he does have pokemon from other regions and the anime shows him battling and relatively easily defeating other champions (I know the anime isn't Canon to the games but I feel it does help visualize them).


Gaias_Minion

I guess Red, I mean, him being The legendary/prodigy trainer and all.


Senior-Ad-6002

But story wise, Ethan beats red


[deleted]

Well yeah, but he was using a Pikachu on his team, he obviously gimped himself intentionally. EDIT: /s just so we're clear


Xzzorio

Yes, but on the other hand we know that following that Red continues to train, considering we see him in the PWT, sun and moon, etc. Whereas Ethan was either unable to make the PWT or retired from battling. It also depends on whether it's the Mega timeline or the non Mega timeline, cause in Mega timeline I don't think he's ever defeated.


MegaKabutops

Except he is, by elio in the alola games. Those are also the most recent ones he appears in chronologically, not counting masters EX.


Obility

I doubt it's that deep considering it was a champion tournament and gamefreak just wanted to include red. Non of the other protagonists are including in the tournament despite defeating the champions. Not to mention red, Lance and blue are all included despite them not being champion at the same time. Missed opportunity imo.


causeyourefatboy

Player beats red. Not Ethan.


Dasamont

The outcome of Ethan and Red's battle is unknown


Obility

How? You the player beat him. Unless you turned off your game.


SecureDonkey

Plus his Pikachu can murder every single one in the room, effective or not.


MagikarpJordan

I say lucas, elio, or victor. Lucas caught God, Elio beat every evil villain, and victor beat the strongest pokemon trainer


MystycalFyre

If we are in Legends Arceus then gen 4 wins bc Arceus is just to good with the custom plate thingy


0mn1p073n71

Bro are we not gonna talk about Victor who literally has a legend as his ace


darkknight941

Also Hilbert, Calem, and I think Elio since catching Reshiram/Zekrom, Xerneas/Yveltal, and Solgaleo/Lunala are mandatory captures for the sake of the story. Though Victor also has to capture Eternatus to move the story along too giving him two legends


Obility

Protagonists past gen 5 canonically have legendaries so they kind of wash everyone before. Although I do have to give gen 3/4 protags some credit for saving the world despite not canonically catching the legendaries. I know most people will just say red but while he is the only fightable protagonist, that also means we beat him as another protagonist. And there is really no other reason to put him any higher other than the developers favourtism. I don't think his feats come close to any other. Especially past gen 3.


Rdasher123

Iirc, if we count ORAS, then Brendan has to catch Rayquaza in the postgame to complete the Delta Episode.


botbattler30

Considering gen 4 canonically defeats god, I think they may have a shot against the legendaries.


Obility

Ya that's why I wanted to give the gen 3 and 4 protags credit for saving the world. If we counts pokemon legends Lucas and dawn than they would wash everyone assuming they canonically completed the pokedex including arceus .


TSMbody

In Pokémon origins red captures MewTwo and has mega charizard on his team


Obility

Not sure if that's canon to the games. In origins, he also doesn't have all the starters. And if he did have Mewtwo canonically, he would have used it on mt.silver. But, iirc Mewtwo was capturable in gen 2. But it might have actually just been hgss


BaulsJ0hns0n86

I believe Red actually completes the Pokédex in origins, in the final episode after catching Mewtwo he is wondering what next when he realizes if there is a Mewtwo there must be a Mew! To do so, he would have the starters. I may be misremembering though. Perhaps Red wasn’t using Mewtwo on Mt. Silver because if he was training, he probably didn’t want to train an already powerful Pokémon, or perhaps he released it. Those are only theories to justify his lack of Mewtwo. And you are correct that Mewtwo is capturable in HGSS but not GSC.


Obility

It's really up to whether to consider origins Canon or not. It is in a different universe after all. Not the same frlg red due to mega evolution. Not to mention reds ace is Pikachu but in origins, it's charizard. In SM, he pulls more similarities to his original video game appearance having Pikachu as his ace with a light ball.


Munchingseal33

Doesn't red have mewtwo


Meewelyne

No


Bwyattvirtue13

Yes he does


Bwyattvirtue13

I think earlier Gen trainers have legendaries too. Red would have Mewtwo. Gen 2 would have Lugia(Maybe Ho-oh) and maybe Suicune too. Gen 3 Rayquaza. Gen 4 Dialga/Palkia.


Obility

When I say canonical capture, I mean it would have been a forced capture as part of the story. The legendaries pre gen 5 are optional and post game captures.


Bwyattvirtue13

But still Canon that they caught them. When people make teams for these trainers they use gift Pokémon and static encounters. Catching these Pokémon is still part of the story and I consider it Canon. Red definitely caught Mewtwo. The Gen 3 protagonist had to catch Rayquaza for the Delta episode. I don't see it as any less being Canon than Gen 5 or later. I mean here Gen 2 is shown having the Shiny Gyarados you don't have to catch that to progress the story yet it its still on their team.


Obility

There's no reason post game captures optional captures would be canon. Especially in gen 1 considering there was no story attached to Mewtwo at least considering the games main plot. Rayquaza I get she to the delta episode so I would count that for sure. But everyone gen 5 and up HAD to catch the legendary in order to progress the story. Also the image is simply a fan list of course. The Pokemon anime considers lance to have caught the red gyrados. And it would be odd to put the champions ace for the protag team (Hilbert and volcarona).


Bwyattvirtue13

OK well by that logic who's to say that the Gen 5 and later protagonists would use the legendaries they caught? If it's all just speculation and your opinion then they could have any random team combination if you're not using some sort of guidelines to what the team would be. I think we need to collectively decide on what these trainers Canon teams would be before we make decisions of which is strongest.


Obility

Imo, anything past mandatory captures is speculation. In reality, the whole thing is but it should have some boundaries. And I would also only include pokemon caught during the main story. Post game stories like the delta episode or the swordbert and shieldbert I would include as well. With that, you very well can including the gyrados and volcarona but imo, the protags should have some identity. It's mostly the volcarona that irks me due to alder. I don't see why the protags wouldn't use legendaries they canonically captured so I don't really understand that point.


Bwyattvirtue13

Because you're speculating them not using certain Pokémon for your own reasoning so you could just as easily say they aren't using legendaries. All we have to go by is really then using gift Pokémon or static encounters based off of Reds teams that we see in PWT and the Battle Tree. So with Legendaries being static encounters I think it's safe to give each trainer 1 legendary from there using gift Pokémon and static encounters makes it pretty easy. This hurts a few of the trainers namely Brendan as the gift Pokémon aren't great besides Metagross but it's still really the only way to go about it imo.


Obility

Gyrados and volcarona was just my personal take but I think it wouldn't be too far fetched to include them. Legendaries caught during the story though would only make the most sense. If you go past the main story than that could include legendaries that aren't even from the region like including groudon in Ethan's team because you can catch it in hgss. You could even argue gen 7/8 protags could have any legendary because of ultra wormholes.


Bwyattvirtue13

OK but you don't see that as being a very big stretch? I'm sorry but I don't see Red having Mewtwo as a stretch you ever watched Pokémon origins? Which is based off the games and Red catches Mewtwo? I don't see these trainers catching cover art legendaries as all that crazy. Either give them all a legendary or none but the playing field has to be leveled or there's not even a point to having this conversation.


Mary-Sylvia

I'll probably says Victor and Gloria, considering that those two canonically own 4 different legendaries at worst


EvilThwomp12

Joey and his Rattata


MarsAdept

Probably Nate/Rosa or Elio/Selene given all their achievements and powerful Pokemon.


Spongy74

If I’m being genuine, Alola kid beat both Red AND Blue, he solos


odysseyshot

If they all have access to the same tools like Megas, Z-Moves, etc. then Unova protag would win. They not only have access to the most Pokemon with the huge Unova dex, but since the Unova Pokemon have a higher Base Stat Total than other regions, due to the high level most of them finally evolve at. Considering all these trainers would likely be high enough level for a Hydreigon to be evolved, then Unova would win.


Xzzorio

Replying to this just for clarification: Yes, they are each allowed a single use of 1 gimmick. Same rules as anime masters 8


TheNatureBoy777

Ethan or red.


TheBiggyBig

Damn Brendan is so underrated


CertainLevel5511

Gen 4 protag seems like the safest bet to me. Palkia and Dialga are both very powerful pokemon from a lore standpoint. Then beyond that there's Giratina and Arceus.


Entire_Watercress

If only Ethan had a different ace than a gen 1 pokemon. Then I'd put him in a high running with the others, but Elio has the highest chance to win, if we are using complete game logic and one gimmick allowed, he has over 700 pokemon at his disposal, meaning he can counter each team perfectly


Xzzorio

Yeah I didn't really know what to make Ethan's ace in this graphic, but I felt the red gyrados was a pretty iconic one associated with him :)


Entire_Watercress

Typhlosion or Tyranitar to me would've been much better options


Xzzorio

Yeah I also thought abt tyranitar but decided on shiny gyrados because it's related to the story of the game, and red's canonical teams have set a precedent for the protagonists using gift/story pokemon on their teams (Lapras and Espeon). That's also why Lucas has a lucario, it is the gift riolu.


Entire_Watercress

Well then why not Togekiss, Hitmontop, Espeon, Umbreon, Magcargo, Ampharos, Quagsire or even Kenya the Spearow/Fearow or Shuckie the Shuckie? I just feel like a Gen 2 pokemon or evoluuof one would be a better representaion.


MalsvirIxen666

His Ace should be Suicune given Crystal is the canon adventure for him.


TheLunar27

This question is kinda hard, because while it’s easy to say “red” there are also timelines where the gen 2, 5, and 7 protagonists defeat red. That’s the thing with Pokémon, there are a lot of different timeline versions of these protagonists, so honestly I think people are inclined to say red simply because he’s the one we see and know the most of, some are also inclined to say Ethan since he’s the one who’s most consistently “canonically” defeated red (gen 5 and 7 guy beat red in an optional battle area while Ethan has to beat red in order to truly “beat the game”). Reds the only one we’ve seen canonically do pretty well in multiple different generations while the rest are mostly reliant on player experience or some minor information/inferring, Pokémon masters gives them each more personality but that’s pretty widely agreed to be a different reality then the mainline games…


Mary-Sylvia

The issue is red is considered as such a strong trainer mainly to the lack of other playable trainers Hilda and Hilbert are wayyyy stronger if we dig a bit in BW2 lore ,so imagine if those two were actual npc


Xzzorio

Yep, and then on top of that some characters have multiple different versions of themselves, such as normal Red and mega-timeline Red and normal timeline and mega-timeline Brandon.


shiftybagr

Which urshifu is that?


Xzzorio

Rapid Strike Style


shiftybagr

I'm kind of torn between him and gen 2 (mega)


SavagesceptileWWE

Personally I would give them the pokemon that it would make sense for them to have. Lucas gets a time/space/antimatter God so lore wise I'd say he wins. Brendan/may absolutely win in game if we take them from ORAS. Not only Mega rayquaza, but primal kyogre or Groudon. Victor has a chance since zacian is bonkers strong, but primal groudon should counter it fairly easily. The best zacian could do it a stab play rough but I doubt that ohkos a primal groudon.


Brandit_

Brendan wins it all after sending out mega rayquaza


JaySeasonEvanoff

No Gen 2 Pokémon for Gen 2 trainer?


DmonAbsoluTrEbON

Red. His team is the most balanced also I am a huge Mewtwo fangay. Ethan might be runner up same for Elio, depends on which team they bring tbh. Most interesting would be their manga equivalent comparisions because Red is imho too dominant in terms of protag skills and team building. He just got a significantly stronger team than any of these guys tbh.


yo-nahs

where are the girls


Xzzorio

They also are a part of this but some of the girl protagonists appear in the anime as characters, may, dawn, and Serena, so to avoid confusion I just used the males across the board.


Fit-Difficulty-5917

I'd say red or the bw2 trainer. Both caught tons of legendaries (red depends on continuity, but in legends he caught all the kanto legends) (bw2 trainer catches swords of justice in story and in postgame gets reshiram/zekrom, and possibly kyurem) and tons of strong pokemon available they catch/have associated with them (powerful starters, strong local mons like gyara and nido in kanto and volcarona and haxorus in unova), and are possibly the most successful trainers in terms of feats (red soloed all of rocket, most otgers needed help here or there, and bw2 fought more legendaries and, if counting postgame, the pwt). I'd give it to the bw2 trainer personally, but I can see it going both ways.


teamrocketmatt

No love for the female protags?


Used-Dog-259

Gyarados counters every Pokémon on this roster.


Docterzero

Why only the male protagonists?


Diamond_Davey

Through process of elimination, I would say red wins


MalsvirIxen666

Ethan/Gold should have Suicune rather than Gyarados since I feel Crystal to be the canon version of his adventure.


LeMadGrApe

Ethan or Victor


papertheskeleton

I would have to see their full teams before making a decision


ACDcarjacker

It’s gotta be gen 8 protagonist, if he’s chilling with urshifu you already know it’s because he doesn’t want you to see Zacian yet.


bingrus

That’s so weird I was so sure the Gen 2 protagonist’s name was Gold


QuacksaysSquawk

If you're not going off of lore, probably the gen 2 trainer because they beat 2 elite fours.


UwUOwOEwETwT

my money is on red


cutieclaire27

either victor or red, they both have the plot armor necessary to steamroll the rest of the competition


Arsenic_Clover

Probably Red


Accomplished_Fox_67

People forget PLA is a sequel/prequel to DPPt, canonwise Lucas captures every pokemon on the dex including a bored Arceus. He's unbeatable.


Danjoe_

If we are just counting the pokemon shown, gold and his gyarados as it counters every other pokemon exeot charizard and lucario


SSBKRILLIN

Easily Red because his ace is Charizard and Charizard prints money.


Bwyattvirtue13

Since it's in game lore I think it goes to Red. He's one of the hardest in game battles. He didn't just become champion but went to train at Mt Silver and surpass even the level of Champion. He's one of the few here with Mega Evolution. Of course we'd have to see teams but if you need that too make your decision good look up what each trainers team would be there's several videos on YouTube about this. People usually give each a Canon starter and then build the team based usually off of Pokémon that are given to the trainer in their respective games or static encounter Pokémon and a legendary from their respective games. This would give Red Mega Charizard X, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax/Lapras, Pikachu, Mewtwo. That's a pretty stacked team and he could Mega evolve Blastoise or Venusaur too depending on the battle.


Late_Perception8824

Sun sweeps, not only is he the Alolan Champion but he beats Red AND Blue when they’re older in the battle tree PLUS other Champions from other regions so he’s already better than Gold. Then he also catches all of the Ultra Beasts AND beats Necrozma in its ultimate form. The only person that rivals him would be the kid from SwSh who beats Leon


Mr-DankSquid

Do we count in gen 7 that the protagonists technically has access to ultra necrozma and gen 8 technically has access to g max eturnatus. I think if there were legendarys allowed, it would come down to those 2 but no legendarys allowed, Lucas is carried just by defeating the left and right hand men of arceus


Bwyattvirtue13

First I think we need to decide on Canon teams for each trainer these are my thoughts in not dead set on all these but there are some that I don't think can be argued. Red- Mega Charizard X, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax, Pikachu, Mewtwo Ethan- Typhlosion, Togekiss, Umbreon/Espeon, Sudowoodo, Shiny Gyarados, Lugia Brendan- Sceptile, Metagross, Cradily/Anorith, Wobbuffet, Kecleon, and Rayquaza Lucas- Torterra, Togekiss, Leafeon/Glaceon, Porygon Z, Lucario, and Dialga/Palkia Hilbert- Samurott, Semisear, Zoroark, Volcarona, Archeops/Carracosta, Zekrom Calem- Chesnaut, Mega Charizard X/Y, Tyrantrum, Lucario, Lapras, Xerneas/Yveltal Elio- Incineroar, Aerodactyl, Sillvally, Naganadel, Porygon Z, Solgaleo/Lunala Viktor- Rillaboom, Toxtricity, Gmax Charizard, Blastoise, Urshifu, Zacian/Zamazenta


Warmears24

Not a single Water starter ace in sight, so none of them win


SquirtleSquadSgt

Red I'd think Sure gold beat him but Red and Blue are the only 2 to appear in future enstalments as maintaining their training and keeping up with battling as it advanced


YoKaiHunter76

Always the galarians


YoKaiHunter76

Red always loses to newbies


ProFoundSG

Lucas


ligmathing

No females?


LiteratureOne1469

I mean one has a A legendary so


causeyourefatboy

Red or the gen 8 protagonists. Red because it is fucking red and also has a mega Charizard x (not a biased choice trust me. Or is it) and gen 8 protagonist because he has zacian eternatus and urshifu single strike. All premier Uber threats and zacian even banned to ag.


Sjheuaksjd

I think...Red is overrated because of his pokemon's stupid high levels (Since players can beat him in many games)


Marano99

Elio is dropping everyone


Ilikegreninja

Your mother