T O P
Flair_Helper

Hey /u/Bombadook, thanks for contributing to /r/nottheonion. Unfortunately, your post was removed as it violates our rules: **Rule 5** - Do not repost similar articles. Check the sub for your story before you submit it; if it’s already here then please vote and comment there instead of posting another version. Similar stories will be removed and frequent re-posters will lose their posting privileges. Do not delete and repost your own submissions without approval. Please read the [sidebar](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/about/sidebar) and [rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/about/rules) before posting again. If you have questions or concerns, please [message the moderators through modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/nottheonion&subject=&message=). Thank you!


BernieTheDachshund

'My Octopus Teacher' was a really good documentary.


NerdbyanyotherName

Assassination Classroom


Sly1969

Sounds like hentai...


[deleted]

[удалено]


AutoModerator

Sorry, but your account is too new to post. Your account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma. Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*


busse9

The cinematography was nice but it really goes against what most scuba divers teach. You aren't really supposed to try to interact with octopi


BernieTheDachshund

He had me almost crying toward the end.


Israel_Anthem

Totally, but I kept thinking he was gonna fuck that Octopussy.


sggkloosemo

How is this oniony? Sentience is a huge factor in questions of animal welfare.


Petalilly

Yea although maybe op is saying it shouldn't take a study to figure this out?


Bombadook

Seems like common sense to me... don't torture animals.


Petalilly

Right when I type my reply I see yours. Glad to know what you mean.


feroqual

You would assume, but it's more complex than that. As an example: NYC, Boston, and Seattle all have municipal water supplies that contain *live copepods* (a species of microscopic shrimp-like crustacean.) This is partially beneficial, as they prey on mosquito larvae in reservoirs. Anyone boiling tapwater in one of those cities has boiled animals to death, and probably in greater numbers than any chef specializing in lobster ever will. Any effort to remove them from the water supply, or even from the water a person or business uses, will kill them. If you were a city official, would you spend millions or tens of millions on reworking your water system to humanely kill the copepods and prevent them from coming back instead of on a program that *will* save human lives, such as public health clinics or a program to provide homes for the houseless? ...Those are the kind of questions that knowing if a type of animal is sentient or not helps answer.


Primae_Noctis

Lobster and crab are more akin to insects than animals.


wormant1

Insects are animals


Primae_Noctis

You're comparing a cockroach to a crow? A gorilla?


doesntpicknose

In the sense that all of those are in the animal kingdom, yes.


wormant1

Damn, seems someone missed out on basic primary school education


Hemderl

You know that's basically the same argument used to claim a fetus is morally equivalent to a baby right?


wormant1

r/confidentlyincorrect You know you can easily educate yourself on this right? Unless you outright admit you have a learning disability


Hemderl

Taking "Life is life" as an absolute stance and refusing to acknowledge that consciousness exists on a spectrum is all meant by that. The point being it's a flimsy and oversimplified argument. Despite the downvotes and insults, I still don't see how I am wrong.


wormant1

Ah, profound cognitive disability it is then. The same "my head is so far up my ass no one can reach me" mentality as flat earthers


sggkloosemo

Yep, this. An animal's sentience determines its capacity for positive and negative experiences, which in turn determines the ethical responsibility that humans (in this case, particularly farmers, fishermen, and cooks) have toward it. We assume certain creatures, such as insects, fish, and lobsters can't feel pain and/or don't have the capability that others do for positive and negative experiences. That's why studies like this matter. If we find evidence that these animals do have those capabilities, it's tangible evidence for people who otherwise could justify that "torture" under the assumption that they weren't causing any pain to the animal.


DoctorCIS

Do they mean actually mean sapient? Or is the differentiation between sapient(is intelligent) and sentient(has senses) a purely sci-fi writing thing? Because of course they are sentient, i.e. they sense or percieve things. That's what living things do. Jellyfish are sentient, they have primitive eye cells that let them see differences in light. Plants are sentient, if you play the sound of catapillars chewing through a speaker they will pre-emptively start going through a stress response of building toxins assuming they they are next on the menu. Odd that the law talks about sentience, but is actually trying to target whether the "unwanted external stimuli" is processed as pain, or just as information to process and respond to.


FredoLives

>Because of course they are sentient, i.e. they sense or perceive things. That's what living things do. QFT Sentient =/= Sapient


Matt463789

Is there a way to cook them humanely?


[deleted]

Not sure, haven’t had any experience cooking humans yet.


hand_truck

They're better raw anyway.


Zippytez

Ok Jeffrey Dahmer


nylod26

Yep you drive a knife through their head before boiling the carcass…


596f75206675636b696e

I'll take that over being boiled alive.


kiwifuzz16

That doesn’t really work for some of these guys because their nervous system doesn’t include an actual brain. That’s why it’s a big deal for research to indicate they can feel pain.


markfuckinstambaugh

The only alternative I've seen is to put a knife through the brain, or smash the brain with a hammer/mallet. Crabs are a special experience for every chef or home cook, because there are only 2 main types: fresh, and fucked. If you prefer fresh, as I do, you have to earn it. You can't get yesterday's raw crab off the shelf like you can with beef, chicken, pork, shrimp, or fish, because the crab will start digesting itself immediately upon death. You gotta look the beast in its eyes and make the decision to kill it, and do that as the very last step of your prep. Boiling is the easiest way for the first-timer. You just drop it in the pot, put the lid on, and say your thanks. Use the biggest pot you have, with a lot of water, heavily salted, already boiling. The water temperature will drop initially when you put the crab(s) in, and you wouldn't want it to drop to the point that it is painful but non-fatal.


neonoggie

Anyone who can just drop a live animal into a boiling pot is fucked up in the head. Supposedly they take a couple minutes of to die like that.


Samhamwitch

There's debate on that. Some say 35-45 seconds. If you get them very cold in a freezer or an ice bath and plunge them head first into rapidly boiling salted water they die almost instantly from the rapid temperature change. Some marine biologists say this is actually more humane than stabbing them through the head because lobsters don't have a brain like ours so stabbing them dosen't kill them immediately, it just fatally wounds them. Which sounds better to you; being put into a coma and then thrown into a pot or being mortally wounded, but not killed, and then thrown into a pot? The $3000 lobster electric chair really sounds like the best way but, barring that, I'll stick with the chill and boil method. Much less gruesome.


Hemderl

If you're also telling yourself they are essentially oversized aquatic insects with brains incapable of of anything more complex than "stimulus/response" it doesn't bother you. Of course this whole debate is over whether that is accurate or not, but how many people really look into the neurochemistry of their food? It's not exactly hard to imagine how a lot of people would do this without a second thought.


Crissagrym

It is a very common Chinese cooking style. Crabs, lobsters, prawn, all sort. One of the dish I had in Macau was drunken prawn, basically you put live prawn in boiling Chinese alcohol and cook them that way. Delicious.


wormant1

It's literally the *global* cooking style for crustaceans and mollusks


markfuckinstambaugh

I'll time it the next time I do it and get back to you.


tee142002

Crawfish stop moving pretty much instantly. Not sure about crabs and lobsters though.


Baecchus

Killing them first would be a good start.


W00bles

No, read your sentence again. "Cook humanely" seems contradicting right? How about "killing humanely"? Those are two words that contradict. Didn't mean to belittle or insult you, just to point out the contradiction.


Zzytona

Isn't it obvious...


whatistheformat

Apparently to some it isn't. Or maybe people just suppress it or really don't care. I find it incredibly disturbing but I won't condemn it, it's an ancient practice, who am I to judge.


BishonenPrincess

It's okay to judge cruelty even if its "ancient practice."


Kost_Gefernon

Gordon Ramsay demonstrated on a video that the proper way to prepare a lobster is to run a knife through the shell at the base of the head to instantly kill it, then place them right into a boiling pot.


smokebomb_exe

That's why you stab them in the brain first.


kiwifuzz16

Lobsters don’t have a “brain” exactly. That’s (part of) why boiling has been a go-to method.


MrScalperwhoop

Nothing should be fucking boiled alive how's about that?!


Zippytez

I crab a lot when I go to the shore. There are plenty if humane ways to kill a crab or lobster than boiling it alive. For a blue crab you can chill them to near freezing then pull off the tops of their shells. This removes their brain from the crab and kills it humanely. For a lobster you stab thru the brain with a knife and chop towards the mouth, also killing it humanely


[deleted]

[удалено]


Zippytez

They dont have cold receptors, and it numbs them and slows them down. Besides, they hibernate in water and sand that hits below 40f frequently in the winter. You're just putting their body in hibernation


BloatedBaryonyx

I thought it was already normal practise to kill the animals before attempting to cook them. I know from my Uni classes that octopuses at least are already considered "honorary vertebrates" which essentially means they have all the same legal protections. Lobsters and crabs definitely don't, however. Maybe octopuses were included in this bill because with this the 'honorary vertebrate' label will become obsolete. Hopefully this will start being enforced quickly - it's horrible to hear these animals are still being boiled alive!


LilG1984

But they're so delicious..... I'll call this lobster Pinchy!!


worldnews0bserver

> the report said lobsters and crabs shouldn't be boiled alive and included best practices for the transportation, stunning and slaughtering of decapods and cephalopods. Oh good, wouldn't want to boil them alive before butchering and serving up these sentient animals for luxury consumption right?


diablollama

News flash, animals eat animal.


BishonenPrincess

News flash, animals rape animals. Animals slaughter other animals for fun. Animals play with their own shit. Animals practice tons of incest. Turns out, some humans evolved to not base their morality over how animals act in the wild.


diablollama

Humans don't need to rape for nutrition....


BishonenPrincess

Humans dont need to eat meat for nutrition either. They do it because it's convenient and tasty.


diablollama

Agreed! Well, not on the convenient part personally. You know how much work it will take to brine, season, inject, and deep fry my turkey this week?


BishonenPrincess

Not as much work as it would take you to make tofu taste the same way. Also, if you want a deep fried turkey, a moistier tastier turkey, just be sure to practice frier fire safety! Make William Shatner proud.


WinterBerryCrunch

Look I'm a big defender that vegan food can be good. There are plenty of delicious vegan dishes, but this bullshit myth that you can make other things taste "just like" meat is only hurting the vegan community. It's downright incorrect, nothing mimics the taste of meat exactly and when you serve those things to non-vegans it comes off as a soulless version of a dish they love. If someone told you they made something that tasted *the same way* as your favorite dish and then it tasted nothing like it you would be pretty suspicious of that person's taste in food from now on, and much less open to the idea of adopting their diet. Instead of trying to make everything taste like meat just lean into the already delicious flavors of the veggies and legumes used.


BishonenPrincess

This is really derailing. I never made the point that vegan food tastes exactly like meat. I said it’s silly to base our morality on what animals do in the wild.


WinterBerryCrunch

Lol you never said anything about animals in the wild. Your comment is literally about making tofu taste like turkey. Why lie when we can all read what you wrote?


hanky2

That’s not really what that poster was saying though they’re saying even though it’s hard to make a turkey taste good it’s even harder to make tofu taste like turkey.


BishonenPrincess

Thank you.


WinterBerryCrunch

No, I think you misread it. They are saying that making tofu taste like a brined turkey is *not as much* work as making a brined and fried turkey. Go re-read both comments above mine.


assotter

Meat is anything but convenient... Ever slaughtered your own kill? Butchering takes forever and raising the live stock takes years. While I can grab a potato toss it in a small hole and have more in a few weeks. The grocery store is what's convenient not the meat.


BishonenPrincess

I didn’t say anything about butchering, so I thought people could figure out I was talking about how the vast majority of the human population consumes meat without having to get into hairsplitting semantics. My bad.


SirLolselot

I’m confused. You say we don’t base our morality animals in the second half. But you spend the first half saying how animals are but all of those things describe humans through out history and still in many parts of the world today.


BishonenPrincess

I literally said “some humans” for that exact reason.


worldnews0bserver

News flash, you missed my point entirely. Humans are animals, animals eat animals. That is not a surprise. It is laughable when people get into the weeds about ethical consumption, however. Wringing your hands about boiling crabs or lobsters when you're going to cannibalize them anyway is a bit much, no? If you acknowledge that they're sentient and that their pain is worth considering, maybe don't eat them in the first place? Otherwise, if you are going to butcher and consume them not because it's necessary but because it's a delicacy, what exactly does it matter the method by which you do so? Try to come up with a better response than 'animals eat animals' next time.


anhangera

>cannibalize them Did a crab type this?


evanc3

Taste like crab, talk like people...


BishonenPrincess

I want to agree with you, but you make it hard to do that when you use words so incorrectly.


diablollama

I don't see your point. You don't see any other animal take pain of their meal into consideration... That being sad, I ice my crustaceans before it's time to cook. Just easier that way.


worldnews0bserver

> you don't see any other animal take pain of their meal into consideration. ..are you fucking with me right now? No seriously, you have to tell me if you're fucking with me. > That being sad, I ice my crustaceans before it's time to cook. Just easier that way. See the way you describe that, that would be pragmatism.


diablollama

I think you need to look up pragmatism, and cannibalism. You are using words you don't understand honey.


worldnews0bserver

I think you should come up with a better response in the future than animals eat animals. Seems we're at a bit of an impasse, honey.


diablollama

I don't know what my response triggers you. Crab eats snail. Fish eats crab. I eat fish. And the world continues to turn.


worldnews0bserver

> I don't know what my response triggers you. *Why And I'll just chalk that up to an abundance of things you don't know. > List a bunch of animals eating animals which has nothing to do, literally nothing to do in itself with my post, which I already explained to you. We should keep going back and forth like this, or you could just accept that you didn't get the point of my post and you could stop responding. That would be nice.


diablollama

You didn't have a point, lmao.


Adawesome_

mfw I had crab legs for the first time yesterday


diablollama

Snow, Dungeness, King?


Adawesome_

Snow. They were good, the butter tasted like cheap theater-popcorn butter though


Lamballama

You have to do it in minutes or the bacteria in them produces a bunch of poison.


Alteego

I don’t think anything should be boiled alive Except clams, I don’t know how else to cook clams.


DecentChanceOfLousy

You've got to aim for the central neuron with a really sharp needle, or else you're a depraved psychopath.


jah05r

Well yeah… so much better steamed.


el__dandy

Consider the lobster, please.


Declorobine

CRABS ARE PEOPLE, CLAMS ARE PEOPLE, LEGIT OR QUIT.


Demadrend

Kill them humanely by pushing them into a canal


Declorobine

The next population the Bristol pusher terrorizes is crustaceans


BoozeTheCat

Craaaab people craaaab people.....


porkchopgreasy

lobsters don’t have a brain crabs have a brain and science suggests they feel pain


kiwifuzz16

Lobsters still have a central nervous system. There’s all the evidence to their experiencing of pain.


Lamballama

They experience pain, but they don't have the emotional ability to suffer, to be able to think "this is the end, I'll never again set my eyes on another sunset"


kiwifuzz16

I think it is enough that they suffer physically. They don’t need to also suffer emotionally in order to deserve a humane death.


[deleted]

[удалено]


kiwifuzz16

Bestie what is the research saying then?


PC61600

Lobsters avoid pain. All the science necessary.


Lamballama

They don't suffer. That requires a complex emotional response. By just thinking pain is bad, you can't get swat bugs and you can't eat plants


BishonenPrincess

Plants feel pain?


Ahnzoog

They have a response to being injured. Such as increased production of natural pesticides and releasing chemicals into the air that tells other nearby plants of their species that they too should begin processing more of their pesticides, as damage is usually insects. so, sort of.


BishonenPrincess

That isn’t pain though. Pain is neurological, and plants don’t have nerves. This feels like people projecting human perception onto something in order to try to understand it better.


PC61600

Bizarre theory.


porkchopgreasy

respectfully, you are incorrect no brain = no pain and not sentient that is what the science actually says


PC61600

Porkchopgreasy wants to talk "science" 🤣🤣🤣


porkchopgreasy

> I always see as hom attacks as displaying low intelligence but please, go on…..


PC61600

Ok. You are denying this current science and pretending you know better simply due to your "scientific" opinion. So done with this discussion.


diablollama

I can tell you want to be done, you are trying hard to avoid his point.


porkchopgreasy

right on homie


xynix_ie

Well, they have enough of a brain up there to run a knife through it before boiling them or tossing them on a grill. It's how I do it before cooking them.


porkchopgreasy

i do the same for sure that being said, it’s some kind of neural sack. it is not a brain


bonusminutes

Literally every animal is sentient.


DecentChanceOfLousy

I think we can make a pretty strong case against rotifers, nematodes, and tardigrades being sentient. Hard to be sentient with only one neuron and being less than 0.5mm long.


bonusminutes

Fair enough. I don't know enough about them to argue that they respond to any of the 5 senses, temperature, etc.


shumpfy

Jordan Peterson is crying somewhere


[deleted]

[удалено]


kiwifuzz16

What would that possibly have to do with whether or not animals should be killed humanely? Human societies have been monstrous, we’re trying not to be now?


Ser_Rezima

What the fuck are you on about? What do past atrocities have to do with ending current ones? Atrocities are bad, full stop


wight-rice

Soft shells have it harder


Waste_Ad5626

http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf


refried_pancakes

Picard moment


[deleted]

Looks like Priti Patel is gonna need a new hobby…


rejectednocomments

I’m curious to see what the actual studies consisted in and what was found.


dudeitsmeee

Already angry Maine lobstermen would like a word with you before they cut you


MaarekStele7

And yet clams and muscles are cooked alive as well.


Jas_Dragon

Louisiana sweatin right now😂


deck_hand

Sentient beings. So, Lobsters and Crabs are self-aware, self-actualizing people, and have a great "Under the sea" civilization. I'm beginning to despair for the state of our "learned institutions.


Erzfuerst

Sentience is not sapience, although they are often used interchangeably in colloquial language


deck_hand

Okay, I stand corrected. I looked it up and it just means that the creature responds to sense input. It will react to heat, cold, sound, pain, etc. not much different than “alive” in that worms and plants also react to physical input.


[deleted]

Now do humans


DrZhivago1979

Peter Griffin - Iraq Lobster https://youtu.be/f31mB6apCoE


i_r_teh_pwnz0r

Finally