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First things first. NEVER TRUST a JW “friend”. They are not real friends. Their love is conditional. Telling your “friend” about pot and sex was a mistake.
Second. There is the two witness rule. Your word against his. Just deny it and tell the elders that your “friend” was expressing doubts and talking about the apostate material that he reads and you think he was feeling guilty which is why he is now threatening you with lies.
Flip the script!
Make it worse, too. Say he’s just mad because you turned down his advances. 😈
Yes! He grabbed your dick like Potiphar's wife!
Normally I wouldn’t advocate for snitching on friends but I think this is pretty justified considering the “friend” plans on throwing OP under the bus whilst saving his own ass and staying quiet about his doubts.
OP has to protect himself or else shit will definitely hit the fan! And never EVER text JWs anything incriminating against you.
Flip the script-
You never said those things.
“He was spreading apostate information. Look here are the texts. He’a saying these things to black mail me into silence”
Deny deny deny
Exactly! What started the whole conversation anyway? His "questioning the cult". He is just as guilty as you are.
He “studied really hard” though.
Wow. Yes. The dude has been betrayed on a high level.
Yes, and block him.
Get in first to the elders and say he’s spreading doubts and sending links to people.
This is what I came to say. Hopefully, HOPEFULLY all the confessional Time was done in person and not in text. Personally I would t meet with them at all. However if you must just tell them he got drunk and none of what he is claiming is true. Turn the tables on him. Now you know what kind of friend he is , throw him under the bus! Deny , deny ,deny. He was the one
With the doubts and you thought he was just drunk venting. Don’t even admit to yourself being drunk. You had a few drinks and let a friend vent. You owe the elders nothing. No truth , no information!
two witness rule can work in your favor. Just say no you didn't and stick to it.
What about just telling him I talked to me elders and saying I was put on private reproof?
No. Follow the advice. Just tell them you guys got into a fight, and now he seems to be retaliating with lies, which is unfortunate. Don’t bother trying to save the friendship. It’s essentially gone.
I don’t want this coming back on me tho, I’m really bad with confrontation and I’d rather not have my parents know anything about this
Maybe your friend was just bluffing. If he goes to the elders he will be in trouble as well.
You can also tell lies about him like he talks with apostate and stuff like that which is not nice but he started all of this.
Just wait a little for things to calm down. Don’t make quick decision.
A little late for that.
Never trust JW friends. They unfortunately aren’t true friends, at least not from the definition of what a friend should be.
Either deal with this confrontation one time and be confident or risk everything . You came here for advice. This is what you need to do.
Short 1 line answers.
"Nope, don't think so"
"Must just be mad at me"
Fuck those self entitled elders they have NO business meddling in your personal life.
Don’t do anything and if the elders do contact you, flip the script back onto your “friend”
“Thank you elder for contacting me - I actually want to express my concerns about jw friend, he has doubts and needs help and I think he is reading apostate information”
Maybe not something you necessarily need to work out right now depending on how you handle this situation, but you’re going to have to discuss your disbelief with your parents at some point. You can’t hide from that forever (except by being a JW the rest of your life). You will need to stand up to your parents. How can you prepare yourself??
You want to say as little as possible. The more you say the more likely you will mess up. If he goes to the elder you will have to have something to tell the them. Unless you can deny the evening ever happened.
If you talk to him again tell him that's not what you said. Doesn't matter if you already admitted something else to him.
Blame it all on him. He was talking about apostate stuff and you were uncomfortable. Throw him right under the bus. Remember, you were drinking but he was drunk. He brought up pot and sex. You've thought about it but haven't acted on it. Maybe he misunderstood.
From what you said you have proof that he was sending links to apostate material to you. That could be your get out of jail free card. Be apologetic for the stuff that you didn't turn him in for. Don't admit to any of the stuff you said you did.
And once it hits the fan your parents won't let you spend time with him anymore so there's one problem solved. That's something you could lie to him about. My parent's said I'm not allowed to hang out with you anymore.
No! Quit talking to him completely! Listen. Just block him. If you tell him that you are making a lie you can’t back up if he starts asking around. However, elders have zero proof to back up what he says. Don’t dig a deeper hole. Fill it in with his body , after you Throw his ass under the bus.
Don’t do that. Absolutely do not.
Can I ask why?
Because you never knew about things that have a risk of being found out. There is too much that can go wrong. Just make your story that you lied about what you were doing to fit in with him/be cool since he was doubting and leave it at that. Short and simple.
Don’t meet with the friend. Don’t dig a deeper hole. Just tell the elders none of it happened when and of the guy goes to tell on you .
I wouldn’t do that because your friend will tell everyone you got punished by elders, then your friends in your congregation might hear about it and say no that’s not true it will become even more complicated.
Meet with your friend and tell him nothing was true, you lied to him because you wanted to look cool, you never had sex or did anything wrong, then he might not tell you to the elders but make sure there are no text messages, just verbal communication.
He sent you links to apostate material? You’ll have to use this as proof and a defense to the elders and turn the tables on him. That’s the only way to stay out of trouble at this point.
While I was reading your post I thought, “did his friend bait him into getting comfortable and admitting things so he can rat him out?”
He so quickly flipped a switch and turned on you, and only after you admitted guilt. Suspicious.. or maybe that’s just me.
1). Admit nothing. 2). Deny everything. 3). Make counter-accusations.
“He shared apostate material with me, brothers, and I told him he was spiritually sick, and needed to confess to the elders to salvage his relationship with Jehovah. He became angry, stopped speaking to me, and suddenly is accusing me of these horrible and false things…”…or some such nonsense. You get the drift.
Elders got bupkus, as long as you stick to your guns.
I'd question #3, the less combative you are, the more the elders will think you are the innocent Christian that you're supposed to be.
In this case, I think that would be a tactical mistake. Strategy would dictate fighting fire with fire…
Does he have any proof about you having sex or smoking pot?
I mean text messages about it?
Not text messages but he did watch me vape multiple times in person.
Your quite safe then. Stop talking with him and deny everything.
They need 2 witnesses or some kind of proof to start a judicial committee. Or a confession.
What will happen next if your friend will tell the elders:
2 elders will approach you about what they’ve heard and talk with you about it, basically looking for a confession, if they see they can’t get any they might put some pressure on you but don’t bow to them. If they can’t get any then there won’t be any judicial committee and you walk free.
Make sure you are doing your story right. You could tell the elders you had an argument with him/her and after that he/she came with these false accusations to try to hurt you.
Make sure 100% you don’t confess about you having sex or anything you talked about. There is no witness to that.
Absolutely follow this advice.
If there is no text message you can deny. It never happened, he was just hurt. Do not leave anything in writing and never confirm anything others ask you. It never happened
Your word against his. That never happened. You agreed to talk. He got drunk. You were not and he vented about doubts. You thought he was just drunk and didn’t feel that way. TAKE BUS, THROW EX FRIEND UNDER IT!
Flip the script lol. If he goes to the elders & they come to you, act surprised. Show them the apostate things he sent you. Tell them that he said his doubts have led him to have sex and smoke weed. Don't feel guilty about it. Who knows. Maybe the JC will help him wake up
Not in writing though.
Deny Deny Deny. And dump that sucker. Everyone you lose is not a loss
You tell that little mother fucker that you will also narc on him. He will be in as much trouble as you. He's a piece of shit. I know of stories like this. Everyone gets drunk and all of a sudden they all turn on you and narc on you. God....I hate this cult.
When you are questioned deny, deny, deny and then show them his texts to you. Use the two witness rule.
that guy is in a worse position than the op since he sent her CSA stuff which is apostacy. Plus, if he were to go to the elders with no proof and she doesn't confess, it can be treated as slander which is also a serious sin. She could play her cards right and DF the dude. OP doesn't realize that they're not in such a bad situation as they believe.
As long as you haven't left any written evidence, no face no case...tell them he is a bare face slanderer and you want him disfellowshipped for slander immediately
Well, he was the first to lie (he promised not to tell the elders) and destroy your trust, so I believe that gives you the right to deny anything he says about you to the elders, or at least play it down greatly. I wouldn’t bring his questioning and reading apostate material to their attention, unless he starts that fire first. It seems he managed to scare himself, and may pull himself back into the cult fully for a time. I hope you both escape eventually, but he may never be able to regain your trust. The kind of mental conditioning you both suffer from does really weird things to people.
Deny deny deny. Just make sure you haven’t sent any text messages or voicemails that are damning against you.
Tell him to fuck off. He’s a coward if he snitches on you.
I would tell him that If he says anything, you will tell his elders he’s been showing you apostate material and investigating CSA cases.
He sent you apostate material? You could have something on him there. He has nothing on you, just his word.
Could you explore the CSA cases he sent you? Ask him questions about it, but not in writing! Tell him his doubts are correct. Don’t write anything.
Otherwise, deny everything.
Tell him he’s a hypocrite and your not going to the elders because they too are complacent and helping the GB cover up CSA. Tell him if he says anything you’ll just deny it! Don’t text him anything just say it where know one else can hear you.
Make sure he is not taping you if you have any conversations in the future. He has proven that you cannot trust him.
I'm just hoping this 'snake in the grass' doesn't have this conversation recorded already.
As I read OP's Story I was thinking to myself this reads like a setup to get OP to open up.
I agree...if need be, THROW whoever under the bus!
Join the military, join the job corps, get a job as a merchant marine, all these occupations will house you, feed you, and teach you a cool job. YouTube on how to join. Kick you family and friends out of your life before they kick you out of their life. You will build a great support group with any of these jobs. Good luck my friend.
National parks, too. Housing, food and great friends.
Tell him he was drunk and exaggerating but if it has to go there with the elders you may inform him of what he was saying when he blacked out. It is normal to doubt, if it comes down to it, just say you had passing doubts (brought up by your CSA obsessed friend, btw) but felt even worse about your blathering drunk "Christian" friend.
He may have been "seeing double", that still does not make him "two witnesses".
Stay calm and don't admit to anything. And now you know this is not your friend. I had a similar experience where I shared that I tried Marijuana to someone I was close to for 20 years, and he turned all self righteous, said either I turn myself in or he will. There was no proof I said it, and nothing ever came from it. Just stay calm. And never let your guard down around any jw.
1) You never said those things.
2) Show them the texts with apostate links he sent you. Tell them you told him to go to them about him looking at and sending you apostate links or you were going to go to them about it if he didn't. You believe that's why he told them those lies about you.
3) You're GOLDEN.
I wouldn’t lie to him to make him believe you were put on private reproof. Just deny it all. Don’t have an physical evidence. Just deny. You’ve lost a friend, but a real friend isn’t gonna narc you out to some old guys for being a normal kid.
His word vs your word. No two witnesses, no credibility for his accusations.
Accept you both got drunk and you dont remember anything else. Deny the charges.
Yes. This is not a bad idea
You're friend needs another witness, unless you "confess". It's their word against yours.
Tell him that you were just making up stories to try to impress him, what with his apostasy talk and all, you had a few too many and your ego got the better of you. Tell him that you have valued his friendship and hospitality over the years but you feel as though his influence might not be the best for you spiritually. Tell him you researched the apostate information he shared and it really scared you because it made you have doubts. Tell him you won’t go to the elders, and that his secrets are safe with you out of respect for your friendship, but you feel like he’s bad association for you right now. Agree to check in again in a couple of months. Then ghost him.
Tell your traitor of a friend that betraying you would put him on the same level as Benedict Arnold and Judas Iscariot.
God I fucking hate how boring these peoples lives are. I know there is a lot of advice in response to your post. You will ultimately have to decide what your best move is. Maybe tell the elders you were worried about your friend for talking about apostate material and you lied about doing that that stuff to try to get him to let his guard down and be truthful with you. You were really just trying to help him but now realize you should have gone to the Elders. I'm sorry you even have to deal with this. Keep saving your money so you can start the process of living a normal life. You have your entire life ahead of you! Don't waste it. This is not a dress rehearsal. What we were raised to believe as "normal" is actually incredibly unhealthy to our psyche. Glad you're here. Keep us posted!
Deny. Deny. Deny. Remember the 2 witness rule? And choose your future friends from "worldly" sources. JWs are conditional friends who have no clue what friendship really means.
Just my opinion here, just deny it all. Say you were drunk and we just talking stupid stuff. Or, deny the conversation ever took place. He was drunk is your excuse. In addition, there was no second witness to the conversation. Your golden dude, trust me nothing will happen if you play your cards right.
He needs a second witness and doesn’t have one. Deny deny deny all accusations and end the fake friendship.
He send you links... You have more proof against him...
Use it as self defense...
"Oh he sent me apóstats links I disagree, he didn't react well, pretty sure he's making that up because of me not agreeing."
Beat the shit out of the snitch. Like I’m taking 60s mob lynch the fuck out of him. If he goes to the elders he would have to have a second witness and he can’t go to the cops because it could bring reproach upon Jehovah’s name.
Yeah, don't do this..... Probably nice to fantasize about for a moment tho... 🤣
Guess I grew up in a different area lol.
Say you were making up stuff because you were drinking in order to fit in with him talking about his doubts. You need to witnesses for judicial cases, his word isn't enough to convict, and thats feasible enough where they can't do anything and outs the weight back on your friend.
DO NOT TEXT ANYTHING TO THE FRIEND ADMITTING WHAT YOU SAID BECAUSE IT COUNTS AS A WITNESS.
Had to cap that to make sure you saw it. If you admit it via text, then you can be disfellowshipped.
That's fucked up 🥺
Deny you said anything.
2 witness rule. It was just you and him. Keep to the dont know why he is lying. Say it just never happened.Look hurt and shocked a good friend could do that and tell themnyou have prayed to great j about his lies
Yeah, rough situation, I’m sorry to hear.
1. Say you were drunk and don’t remember anything except him talking about links to apostate material
2. if they ask about sex/weed/vape say you were drunk and bragging, it’s all not true you were trying to be cool and you’re a virgin.
Worst case scenario, if it all goes to shit you can always tell your parents it was a mistake and with their guidance you can repair your relationship with god. They’re not going to kick you out if you’re convincingly remorseful. I’d also paint your ex friend in a very bad light with your elders. The fact that there was a falling out between you + the apostate stuff he showed you really plays into him not being a credible source of information. Tell them he’s got it out for you
Once you have your information, delete this post, it is highly specfic.
The information in this was changed
Say he’s lying. If it’s not in writing they can’t do shit if you deny it.
deny deny, save those links, if he reports you make sure u let them know all about how he was trying to share apostate materials and clearly making up this ridiculous story bc you threatened to tell...2 witness rule ya know...
He's a flaming hypocrit and a fkn weirdo.
Threaten him right back and cut him off.
if this was drunk talk and no text messages were exchange in where you said that you smoked pot and had sex, then you can easily deny it. It will be his word vs your words and so they can't convict you based on the two witness rule. There is also no proof that you stayed with a girl in private so they can't enact their 1 person testimony BS either. If there are no video recordings or paper trail and he tries to tell the elders that you said "this and that," this could be treated as slander which is a serious sin. He also sent you info on CSA so he is actually guilty of spreading apostasy. You have leverage over him and could potentially bring him down too if he tries to bring you down.
Sorry for sounding toxic but this is "theocratic warfare" as they say. Anything goes.
Meh. It’s your word against his. Fuck that guy. If he goes to the elders just deny. You have no idea what he’s talking about. They need two witnesses.
Don’t admit to ANYTHING. It’s his word against yours, so if you just deny it or play dumb, the two witness rule will work in your favor. Don’t feel pressured to even give an explanation. Ask confused and baffled that he would say such a thing.
It’s best you now distance yourself from this “friend” completely though - don’t text him, don’t call him, and don’t leave any evidence that can be used against you.
I know the cost of living is insane right now, but I would start putting money away and planning a slow fade.
Tell the stupid asshole good-for-completelynothing elder you will be appointed to that you set up your friend because he had real bad information a.nd was badmouthing the watchtower and got you drunk and sent you apostate material so you devised a plan to help him and now he is mad at you.
But knowing that you feel theatened you surely have incriminated yourself via texts by now... if not, don't leave text trails behind
Deny deny deny and if they do ask anything say that he is the one questioning and must be projecting on you as you told him to go to the elders.
What a jerk. If I thought he was serious about holding you to confession I would go bombs out. Shoot first. Turn the table. Tell the elders you guys were drinking and he confessed to reading apostate material and you were concerned. Deny deny deny. What a jerk.
Deny then punch him in the face good and hard.
Hes probably feeling really guilty and the cult think is getting to him, so he sees this as trying to help you. I hate how i relate to this.
Use their own Dirty WatchTarded Tactics against them.
There is no 2nd witness to what you said, so deny it. There\`s nothing they can do without that 2nd Witness.
Consider it "Spiritual Theocratic Warfare"
I\`ve never met a JW who wouldn\`t lie for their own benifit...Then chalk it up to "Spiritual Theocratic Warfare".
I watched Watchtower Pope "Geoffrey Jackson" lie his ass off to the RBC..He smiled at them the entire time....It\`s the "WatchTower License to Lie"...Use it!...😁
I wonder if your a-hole of a friend is reading this right now, and if he is, if he’s messing his pants.
Just a guess here.. he likes you and thought you guys were getting close.. then you opened up about having sex and he freaked out (purity culture/loss of control of the situation) and now he thinks he can use the org in his favor to get you back under control so he can have another chance. Just a guess.
Jw are known to tell on each other...no true friend those that.
Seems like you are very worried about being on your own and would rather live a lie. You are 22 yrs old. Do you have a job? Then get an apartment or roommates and move out. You will feel so much better.
There wasn't 2 witnesses to witness such discussions
were their 2 witnesses? if not then they cant do shit