By - NPocu
The only thing I’d change is calling it a political issue. I strongly believe it is women’s rights issue. I have a young daughter and I’m so fucking pissed at the dismantling of what I thought made America great growing up. If these conservative justices get their way, they are going to tell her what she can do with her body and who she can love.
Gay marriage is likely on the chopping block soon and now I get to watch my gay friends, family, and neighbors who finally got the support they deserve from our country go through the same shit again because some bible thumpers are uncomfortable with their happiness.
How far back do we rewind? Segregation?
If we want anything protected we have to make it a part of the Constitution. Even for an amendment the protection isn't perfect, but it's better than something based on a court case ruling.
Please get out and vote this November - make sure your voice is heard.
This absolutely the right response to this shit. The biggest problem with Roe is that it was the court making law on thin justification. What needed to happen was Congress to solidify that sometime in the last 50 years. What is now needed is for Congress to pass laws guaranteeing privacy, personal automy, and control over ones self. It needs to go beyond and include abortion rights, trans rights, and lot of other individual freedoms that don't have any effect on others. From there the people need to standup and solidify these things in The Constitution. The court needs to go back to being a referee and not a place where policy is made. I really hope this is an instance of the US doing the wrong thing before we do the right thing.
i really wish dems would have had some time to get shit passed so we didnt have to rely on a court ruling for these things. but theyve only had enough of a majority like 2 months in the time roe v wade existed to do anything, and they were busy with a recession and passing healthcare reform.
And this is because every goddam 2 years 1 subgroup of Dems or another feels they have to protest vote or vote 3rd party and then turn around and bitch that the democrats don't do anything. It's very maddening! Especially when you have a thin majority like now but 2 ignorant senators in Manchin and Sinema blocking real change. FFS! Y'all better vote BLUE this year and every year or this country is going to lose so much to the conservatives it's crazy!
Pretty sure they want slavery back.
I doubt you’d find a broad support of classic American chattel slavery, but I bet you’d be shocked by the support for indentured servitude with diminished rights.
Imagine a system where a rich person finds your college and then owns your labor for 10-15 years after and ask if that really sounds far from where we are?
The system you described is pretty much what we have now wrt to college. It’s so expensive and saddles youth with so much debt.
>I bet you’d be shocked by the support for indentured servitude with diminished rights
Who would be shocked? Not anyone employed during end-stage capitalism, that's for sure.
I'm curious what comes after end-stage capitalism?
LOL as a soon-to-be senior in college in the tech sector it's scary that this seems like a better option to me than job searching in this market.
Slavery is still legal as punishment for a crime
Slavery never went away; it was just restricted to those who have been convicted of a crime.
Which is why they keep creating legal schemes to put people in prison.
The OP asked where this is headed. These Christian right-wing fascists want the old south to rise and buy and sell black people as property. Is that explicit enough?
I’m not certain that they want to limit it just to black people either…
This line of reasoning must be somewhat awkward for Clarence Thomas. Or not. He did toss interraicial marriage into the mix sua sponte.
I always assumed he was the inspiration for Clayton Bigsby.
Care to elaborate on “they”
If it's not obvious, you're not paying attention.
Literally not an answer, and I’m not sure what you mean?
1. You are not commenting in good faith.
2. I have no responsibility to explain myself to you or educate you.
3. The context of the post makes it obvious, so maybe it's a deficiency on your end.
Who would she use to enforce that point of view?
It’s also a class issue
Might be segregation - the civil rights act and ADA aren't codified explicitly in the constitution and that seems to be about the only bar for these hacks. 14th amendment be damned
Its funny because the bible says life begins at birth so wtf christians…?
It's almost as if modern Christianity, especially the new-and-improved "Rich Republican grift" flavor, is largely built on picking and choosing what the Bible actually means based on the situation.
They are disingenuous liars?
It also has instructions on how and when to do an abortion.
I feel like this response just plays into and exacerbates the point this video is making. The Bible says a lot of things. No one should care, *at all* about what it says, except for practicing Christians. In their case they can read whatever bullshit they want out of it as long as they’re not reading it as a mandate to legislate their religious practices on the non religious.
In the case of having good faith political conversations, where someone’s little personal religion should ideally play *zero role*, it *does not matter* what their book says, whether you think they’re interpreting it “correctly” or not.
In pizza we crust
rest in pepperoni
This is no longer the correct response. Religion calls for its members to push their beliefs on others in order to "save" them. Quite literally these people think they are doing their "god's work" to save everyone else from eternal damnatiin. I am no longer convinced we all can co-exist.
When your cult says your Religion is the only Religion (which nearly ever Abraham based Religion does) we will never live in a world where freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religious oppression exist. Their religion literally prevents that.
100% I don't caaaaaaaaaaare. I don't care. I do not care. I do not CARE how you choose to worship. Your personal rights end at your nose. They Do Not infringe on mine. And likewise. MY personal beliefs do not extend past my nose. I would like all organs donated when you die. I would love blood donations to be something everyone does. But I sure as hell will never legislate that. You get to say no. Just like me.
Who is this woman, she's awesome
Anahit Misak Kasparian, (Ana) she was part of The Young Turks back in 2013, not sure if she still is.
Yeah she’s still killing it TYT.
Ah... well.. fuck. TYT contributed to the shit we're in now by promoting Busterism
Are you kidding?! Cenk is very clear about voting for progressives in primaries and Democrats in the general.
Ahh, another one of those Armenian genocide supporters.
The point, if you listened, was specifically republicans trying to force their beliefs on strangers. Just because one person doesn't like the idea of killing the unborn fetus doesn't mean that they can cram their belief down the other person's throat. It's none of your business what a random stranger does with their body. And republicans only care about the fetus while it's unborn, not after. Like American foster care system.
the person you're replying to is making a stab at the programs name: The Young Turks, which has to do with the Armenian genocide.
Preach girl. Preach.
This. 100%. Keep your book of fucking fairy tales out of my life.
Source? I need to post this to FB to piss a few people off.
Thank you. If you happen to be my friend on FB, you will be seeing this very shortly.
Good Choice Bro
Their argument is "well it's not the Supreme Courts place to have done this in the first and it should be up to the states." But we are talking about personal freedoms which is literally their argument for the right to bear arms and to not get vaccinated. Just because it's not in the constitution doesn't change how they flip flop on their personal freedoms when it comes to abortion rights and gun rights. They should be "Well I don't agree with it but no one is going to tell me what I can or cannot do with my body or my property".
Bonkers. Bad move by the SC terrible precedent.
The ninth amendment literally says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
But that's exactly what the Supreme Court did. Fucking fuckers.
It seems as if they are actively dividing these United States.
God when somebody aborts a fetus the size of a grape: **angry screeching**
God when a 5 year old gets leukemia:
Not the God in the Bible! In the Bible, grape-sized fetuses are valued at the same level as property, like a wagon or ox. Voluntary abortion isn't addressed, but causing unintentional miscarriage is punishable as a property crime.
>In the Bible, grape-sized fetuses are valued at the same level as property
So are women
The GOP are just a bunch of busy bodies trying to dictate their views to everyone and SCOTUS is now a relic of what used to be a fair way to decide issues.
Perhaps we need a national ballot with these issues put to an actual vote and I don't mean being represented by someone that says they will do such and such like 3 SCOTUS under oath said they would uphold Roe vs Wade.
Lying under oath seems to be okay these days let alone sticking to any campaign promises.
*had the right.
This is so so so fucked up.
Aaaaaaah!!! ❤❤❤The real shit is coming out
Denial of bodily autonomy.
Systemic child rape.
Child genital mutilation.
This is the Catholic church today.
These things are all linked and part of a broader pattern of bizarro sexual perversion that that Catholic church and it's adherents believe in.
This is also why men really need to pay attention to what is going on here. It's not just about religious nutjobs bullying women. Christians will use their false-victimization and (im)morality preaching to justify other crazy shit. The bizarre and horrifying special of circumcising male babies penises is just something that they can get away with easily because a baby won't shoot them in the face for fucking with their junk, which is what any sane adult man would and should do.
I personally feel like women are making a huge mistake by failing to make this a larger issue of greater bodily autonomy and by failing to link all of these issues back to the perpetrator: vile religious extremism.
I mean, I kind of care. Religion is pretty Walmarty.
But the states that ban abortion will pay for it, and pay hard, in about 16 years.
this is performative narcissism.
most Americans do not believe abortion is okay after viability. and by most I mean about 2/3 of them.
personally in favor of abortion but the "progressives" often spread misinformation and use emotional reasoning to bypass any honest or nuanced discussion.
this doesn't need to have anything to do with religion. but if you are extreme "progressive" and you think "the right" and "religion" are the enemy, that's your perogeraative. but she is purely out there with #misinformation. If you watch MSNBC and think it's news you probably also think the youngturks is intelligent too. lol
Ramen, sister suffragette.
Political arguments need to based in empirical reality. The rest of us are bound by the truth while they can argue any nonsense and call it faith. Faith is not interchangeable with fact.
>Political arguments need to based in empirical reality
That can only happen when a societal consensus exists as to what constitutes empirical reality. One of the most damaging effects of the last few years of American politics is that Americans can no longer agree on what reality is.
Americans have been very lenient with Christianity, and they have taken advantage of this. Wake up, and identify the problem, America!!!
It's not in the Bible! It's in the Didache, which is a sort of guidebook that's not considered Bible canon. Most Christians don't know this. The verses they use are from a pre-Christian Jewish religion that didn't believe in an eternal soul and wouldn't until Greek culture took over. The notion of a preexisting soul came from Aristotle, a pagan philosopher. As an amateur Bible history nerd who strongly believes in abortion rights, this little detail drives me nuts.
I’m right there with you on abortion-as-murder not being biblical but I don’t think any of these people are reading the Didache tbh
Most of "these people" probably don't read much of anything whatsoever.
I remember years ago sitting in the kitchen of a middle aged conservative couple debating the merits of Fox News. I said something to the effect that I doubted the people who watch Fox News read any news publications. One of the couple was really offended, but the other said something like "Well dear, he's probably right". I'll never forget that because it was the first and only time I can remember a conservative admitting that a significant fraction of their party's constituency is essentially news-illiterate.
By the way, I should add that as far as I know (which probably isn't too far), there are plenty of news-illiterate people at all points on the political spectrum.
Fair enough, how about “the radio or tv evangelist they listen to very occasionally who reinforces their idea that their faith compels them to reactionary conservatism and fascism isn’t reading the Didache”
I resonate. Deeply.
This post belongs on r/politics, not r/Seattle. This is a local subreddit, and the mods should do more to ensure it stays that way. If we're doing Roe posts, they should be on the local response.
Look I couldn’t post this on politics
I agree with the sentiment, but it’s not the most relevant issue here.
Roe wasn’t struck down on the basis of religion. Rather, it was some highly suspect, highly motivated legal finagling*
*specifically—that the 14th Amendment’s Due Process clause (on which Roe rests), shouldn’t be read to guarantee the right to an abortion (which is bullshit).
I think we need to get crisp on what the problem is—a radical court that will use any means at its disposal (religious or not) to upend laws that are settled in the eyes of the public.
Amusingly, there was some talk of using the same ridiculous legal finagling (in California) to enable citizens to sue gun manufacturers if/when someone is killed by gunfire.
Its all rooted in christianity. Separation of church and state
The SCOTUS ruling literally has nothing to do with religion
Is it about religion though
Biden should expand the court to prevent this attack from left from further damaging our rights. Same sex marriage and birth control are next. It’s a sad day for America.
It’s extremely sad because this was all because RBG couldn’t hold on for another 6 months and that fucker McConnell doesn’t have an ethical bone in his body. RBG was the biggest proponent of women’s right and this ruling shits on her grave.
Speaking the truth what a smart beautiful woman
Using the Bible as a basis for any point on this topic is the weakest argument, and is an easy target to rail against.
Unpacking "my body, my choice" is closer to the real issue. If this is merely about making choices about a woman's body, why do most states recognize fetal homicides when a fetus is killed along with carrier?
Not saying abortions should be illegal. Abortions should be legal. But we need to stop pretending that we're not making decisions about another's life.
Yeah, I really don't love the "my body my choice" argument because we actually don't really have bodily autonomy as it is. Like, the draft exists.
From where I stand, abortion access - and contraception access -- are just good policy. They decrease poverty, decrease kids born into poverty, decrease kids born into households of parents who can't care for them, decrease private adoption industries, decrease maternal mortality, and increase women's independence. Those are all concrete, measurable outcomes.
"What is the meaning of life" is a discussion for when you drop acid in your buddy's brother's dorm room freshman year. This is policy. It has to be more concrete than that.
Word. Fuck Evangelical Christian terrorists. Their sky daddy can go fuck himself too.
Just let each state vote on it. It's no big deal. The religious states will have more restrictions, just like the more religious parts of the EU do. The less religious parts won't have any bans.
So everyone who lives in those states and doesn’t conform those ideological beliefs are just fucked? If you outlaw leaving the state for an abortion and you can’t afford to move you just have to suffer under a Christian nationalist government?
LMAO young Turks.
It Sucks but she has a point
I get that this feels really righteous, but there's nothing in the supreme court decision about the bible. This is just fan service, not anything that actually pertains to the debate.
The same argument made by those who didn’t want mandatory Covid shot laws/rules against their bodies…. But those folks were called everything under the sun. End of the day this falls back to the 10th amendment and nothing more they didn’t say abortion is illegal…. They said it’s up to the states as our constitution states it is.
It's not the same. A person's decision about vaccinations and masks affects other people. A person's private medical decision only affects them.
Not a baby
There is 1 guaranteed death in an abortion. There is simply no reason to argue that. A Covid vaccine or lack there of there is no guaranteed death. And again this is about the constitution nothing more. Unfortunately people want to believe the constitution is a buffet line. It’s not. Don’t like the laws lean on your congress not the court they don’t make the laws.
Still not a baby
And the people screaming about the government telling them to get vaccinated are those telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies. They don't even see that.
There are definitely hypocrites on both sides. I’m not arguing yay or nay or abortion. I’m saying it’s the constitution and the 10th amendment being argued. But yes “my body my choice” should be universal. (Whether that’s Covid, abortion, sex changes, you name it) The anger is misplaced and should be at congress not the Supreme Court imo
Did someone use the Bible to justify vaccines?
No they used “science”
At what point does life begin?
If I ask you how long of a life you’ve lived you’d start at your birthdate…. There’s your answer bud
This is so awesome.
Can someone put it on repeat and hack it into a few TV stations?
I need this link
Anyone know who this lady is and what channel I can see her on cause she’s amazing
It’s Ana on the Channel Young Turks
I thought it wasnt political though?
I don’t care what you think either
Can't we same the same thing about gun control?
No, because the two aren't remotely fucking equivalent.
Abortions don’t kill other people
Nah you’re the clown if you think a clump of cells that can fit in a Petri dish is a person
People are using religion to limit the purchase and use of firearms?
It isn't always for religious reasons.
I'm agnostic and just feel that once there is a hearbeat then a fetus is a live human being.
An actual heartbeat that pumps blood, or the false heartbeat that's being used as a "life" metric? There is a lot of inaccurate propaganda associated with this benchmark.
you're not a medical doctor or bioethicist AND it's not your fucking right to tell other people what to do with their bodies
btw a cluster of pulsing cells that don't pump blood isn';t a heart beat.
The classic heartbeat without a heart.
>I'm agnostic and just feel that once there is a hearbeat then a fetus is a live human being.
So you want the state to enforce your beliefs on others?
Can it live outside of the mother's body once there's a heartbeat? If no, it's still a parasite. It's not sentient. It doesn't have the grey matter developed in its brain for thought.
What does a heart have anything to do with a unique lifeform anyways? If i'm in my 40s and get a heart transplant, does that make me a different person now? If anything, 'life' should begin with the first sign of brain activity (usually around forty to forty-three days).
It's a fucking clump of cells, get the fuck over it
Oh you people are dumb af
You're pro-forced-birth, there is nothing I can say that will cause you to believe in science. Why do you hate women?
Don't forget the tail and gills.
Does a person have a right to your organs or blood without your consent? Even if they would die without them? If not then neither does a clump of cells.
The only difference between a parasite and a fetus is consent, stop trying to blur that line.
No, they don’t. Not until much later
And conscious thought doesn’t come until they’re out, sometimes not even for their whole lives.
We aren’t talking about 9 months though.
We are talking about abortions. There are many states allowing abortions without limitations. Until birth.
It's called giving birth, Frank.
There are limits now, so this isn't a genuine concern.
You say *now* as though the Supreme Court just changed something.
They literally said each state chooses their own laws related to abortion. OH NO!! THE PEOPLE GET TO DECIDE THE LAWS BY VOTING LOCALLY!! The horror!.
The limitations in WA didn’t change. OR didn’t change. CA, NY didn’t change.
Your naive interpretation of the situation is quaint, but I've no patience for this today.
Just say it- ‘you’re right…..’
No, someone not wanting to waste their time talking to a neofascist is not them admitting they're right. it's them admitting that you're not worth talking to.
Wasn’t talking to you.
u/judithishere No American says daft. You English? Aussie?. Welcome to American law. The constitution rules and abortion is not, nor ever was a part of the constitution.
i don't give a flying fuck who you think you're talking to. you're wrong. we're going to continue to tell your fascist ass that you're wrong. piss off, traitor
I think you were addressing me, and you are not right. I believe in bodily autonomy. 100%. This applies to reproduction, sexual relations between two (or more?) consenting adults, etc. etc. etc. So fuck off.
Are you daft? You commented right under my post, so you most certainly were addressing me. And you got an answer. If you think we don't know that this ruling (and what will follow) is designed to send us back to secondary citizen status, and keep us out of equal society and only used to breed, then you really are dense. We see you. We know. And we aren't going back.
Were you born with a uterus? If the answer is No, you don’t get an opinion.
By your logic you don’t have a say in child support or alimony.
This makes no logical sense.
A woman’s body does not equate to finances. The two are unrelated.
Forcing a woman to birth a child she is unprepared for will certainly affect financial stability, so there is a relation. The result will be anguish and depression, likely for both the parent and the child. Let's not forget the fact that the same government forcing this birth will do less than the bare minimum to help this new family if they struggle, too.
You’re 100% right, that’s why this is such a tragedy. Maybe I worded that wrong. I just meant that a woman’s body is not at all the same as the money involved in child support or alimony.
But they aren’t children until they’re born. By this logic, every time you have alone time with the computer on the hub, you should be arrested for the deaths of thousands.
There’s no guarantee of a successful future or sentient thought from a clump of cells, but you’re still arguing for them
Guess what. You’re a clump of cells. Literally every adult human is a *‘clump of cells’*
You’re also a human, just like that unborn 7 week old you want to murder.
You just said unborn. If it isn’t born, it isn’t living.
Nope…. That’s insane talk. It’s not living yet it has 100% the body, development and means to survive on its own? Simply the geographic location of the child determines life? Insanity.
Seems to be the general consensus of the world. Do you come out of the womb and we say you’ve been living for 8 months. Is your birthday a year after you’ve been conceived?
It has the development and means to survive on its own? You're fucking loony, children born early have to be taken special care of to ensure their survival, and this can sometimes have lifelong effects. Why are you just spouting bullshit?
Allot more then a fetus, and have conscious thoughts. Again, potential life is not life, especially when it can be hurt by parents who don’t want them, harsh financial situations
You realize the chants going on say they want abortions without limitations. That is- up until birth. A child is 100% viable and alive at 9 months. Yet you’re okay killing it because you have money problems.
No we’re not talking about killing, and you want that child to grow up with those problems? You want a child to be born into a horrible financial situation that could end with starvation?
This only happens when it's a dire medical need. No doctor is required to perform any "choice" abortion asked for.
If it's so independent it can move right on out of my uterus.
OFC you’re a man. Of fucking course you are. You sure have lots of opinions about women’s bodies for someone that will literally never have to ever consider carrying a child. Ever.
He has a lot of opinions about women's bodies for someone who's never allowed to touch any
If a girl is raped and gets pregnant, should the rapist also get a say in whether or not the girl has to carry a baby for 9 months, then give birth?
I’d allow exceptions for rape and incest. Next?
Looking forward to your thoughts on this OP. This is why this should be a federal decision and not a “local vote.” Allowing states to make their own rulings on the matter leads to BS laws like this.
Contrast that with allowing abortions until birth, 9 months. Extremes on both sides I guess.
You know why mothers choose to get late stage abortions? Which, by the way, only occur in less than 1% of abortions (when you consider “late stage” after 24 weeks)?
Because otherwise that fetus would die. They have a lethal fetal abnormality. If the mother would die after the point of viability and so the fetus needs to come out, the doctors do a C-section and treat the baby in the NICU in the hope the baby survives.
Despite what some moronic politicians might have told you, doctors aren’t handing out “nine month abortions.” They aren’t aborting fetuses who are about to come out of the womb screaming and will grow up to be the next president. They are aborting fetuses whose brains grew outside their heads. Whose spinal columns never closed and for whom surgery is impossible. Who would be born and suffer immense pain for the minutes, hours, days, or weeks until they inevitably died. For the vast majority of late term abortions, these are wanted pregnancies and the decision to end the pregnancy is brutal. For you to keep throwing out this uneducated blather about how nine month abortions happen often shows that you know literally nothing about the reality of what those abortions are actually for, when they happen, or why. So please, for the love of god, shut up.
We clearly don’t completely agree on this in general, but we do agree on some parts. You’re right. Allowing abortion up until 9 months is a horrendous thought. There will always need to be certain guidelines, as far as how far along a women is, if there’s a medical emergency that can be resolved by an abortion, and other nuances. But the complete ban is outrageous.
But why wouldn’t you “have the voice of the children” for those embryos?
I just want to hear your argument for the rest. Because it’ll be unintelligible. I only cede ground to come to a reasonable agreement. I don’t think just because someone was raped means they should kill someone else.
I’ll use my personal experience as an “argument for the rest”. I was 18 and had a 22 year old boyfriend. Being a dumb young girl, trying to get him to like me, I agreed to us having sex, which I had never done before. A few months prior to this, I had gone to Planned Parenthood and gotten free birth control, so I thought I was safe. I was not. I ended up getting pregnant, and when I told my boyfriend, he beat the ever-loving shit out of me. I was fucking terrified, alone, and scared shitless that I had ruined my life by accidentally procreating with an awful person. I was able to go to Planned Parenthood, get a dose of medication that induced my period, which terminated the pregnancy. I never, ever want there to be someone in that position who has to stay pregnant because the government says they’re not in charge of their own body.
The Bible has nothing to do with it. Biology tells us human life begins at conception.
Biology (and science at large) has trouble even defining "life". Please refrain from spreading misinformation.
She freaks out well. I remember when she freaked out over Trump’s election. I was kind of hoping Trump would win not b/c I’m a fan but b/c it would have been VERY entertaining to watch her flip out a second time around.
You would want four more years of that guy just to see a few minute outburst from this woman?