[Episode Discussion] What If...? Season 1 Episode 3 - Wednesday, August 25, 2021
By - AutoModerator
Episode 3 premiers *August 25, 2021* on Disney+. The post cannot be updated due to AutoModerator reasons. Many apologies to those of you who have been trying to watch the episode since August 11.
I did not have "Hank Pym murders the Avengers" on my *What If...?* Bingo Card, but that was fantastic.
This was my favorite of the 3 episodes, by far. Episode 1 was pretty lackluster. Episode 2 was fun, but logically didn't make much sense. Episode 3 was both fun, and intriguing, but also makes sense (given that Hank Pym is one of the smartest people on Earth, but also was never a great human being to begin with)
Plus, the pacing of Episode 3 wasn't nearly as bad as the first two episodes, although, I will still say that the pacing has been this show's biggest weakness (I know I'll get downvoted, because criticizing anything about an MCU show means I'm "just hating" apparently)
There were some big issues with pacing in the first episode, but I guess that is what happens when they try to cram 2 hour movie into half an hour.
Second was a bit better, but this one has the best pace of the three :D
Yeah, this one really felt like a true tangent in the timeline rather than just a what-if x character was actually x character.
SLJ and Clark Gregg feel completely natural with their voice work.
ETA: Hiddleston, too.
I think Clark Gregg has voiced Coulson in some of the cartoons and LEGO games, and of course SLJ was Frozone
It's nice Coulson became such a popular character he got voice work outside the mcu.
Not the best Ed Norton impression though
Weird they made it look like Ed but with Ruffalo's voice. It was a bit jarring.
Hm... Looked more like Ruffalo to me
It looked like Ed in the opening montage, but the rest of the episode he looks like Ruffalo.
This was the best episode so far imo. VA was seamless. Interesting plot. Good humor. Facial expressions weren't too jarring. Fight animation was great. The ending was great too.
Agreed, this episode as a whole was far better voice wise out of each so far.
"Even while rotting he smells like lavender!"
Excuse me but what the fuck?!
Definitely an odd scene.
Reminds me of when Nick took a peek at a dead Skrull's dick
Not gonna lie to me that part was hilarious
The Writers Barely Disguised Fetish
SEVERAL fetishes. When Hulk died I was straight up prepared for this to become an inflation porno
i was like “weird joke but at least it’s over” and then they ran with it like three more times
also norse gods — particularly thor — were *not* known for smelling good
this and the password joke fell flat to me but i thought the rest of the episode was great
What,,,pray tell,,,,we’re they “known” for smelling like? What did the Norse aGod of Thunder smell like according to historic writings?
Axe Body Spray
Man pre-avengers MCU is such an old-school vibe now.
Iron Man 2 is exactly halfway between now and The Matrix, and it really feels like it.
We’re maybe a couple years away from posts like “I was born after Avengers so I really grew up on Phase 3.”
And so, my bones did receive an extra 30 degrees of creaking and crumbling
it’s a comfy vibe though it takes me back to simpler times :’)
Barton had more of a role in the shortened version of Thor than he did in the actual Thor movie.
Sad but true. I wish Clint had a larger supporting role in Thor, not just an uncredited cameo scene.
I don't even know why they bothered wasting Renner's time on that cameo. It was our first time seeing Hawkeye on screen and they don't even have him shoot an arrow.
Especially insulting considering Black Widow got a fairly in-depth introduction in Iron Man 2.
He totally should've been like Coulson's bow-wielding bodyguard in Thor. That would've given him much more screen time even if he was just a background character.
This is Hawkeye. He's got my back. I would advise not getting killed by him. His bow traps the souls of its victims.
First appearance of Betty Ross in 13 years, wow! Not Liv Tyler, though
I think she had a photo in Endgame. I could be wrong.
People downvoting you for not remembering 😭
you forgor 💀
Tbh, I was really impressed by Fury’s bitch slapping Pym before the Loki reveal.
What did the five fingers say to the face?
Still, Loki bitch slapping Pym while disguised as Fury is something I would have never thought I'd see
There’s something surreal hearing Ruffalo around the events of The Incredible Hulk.
Agreed, movie isn’t as bad as people make it out, definitely not perfect but still decent was very cool
Romanoff in the truck should totally have said "Before we get started, does anyone want to get off?"
I thought she was.
*Everyone raises their hands*
“Oh you meant in a fight”
I wonder how many of these alternate stories will be continued. Steve and Danvers v. the entire Asgardian army would be kind of an awesome follow-up arc.
Steve would die. Carol would need to go binary.
Thor's Hammer is still in new mexico...
Carol, Worthy Cap and (maybe) wizards and wakanda forming earth's resistance against asgard would be a great follow up story
You kidding? Sif and the Warriors 3 would totally defect when they see this guy from Earth wielding Thor’s hammer,
I mean, they might not even know about the enchantment, since it's only been enchanted for less than three days at this point.
Exactly what i was thinking! I hope some of these what if stories get sequel episodes in season 2
Yeah I don't mind if they aren't given follow-ups, gives room for more different ideas to be explored, but some set up seriously interesting premises that almost deserve continuation. Is there a way to stop Ego's expansion? Will Loki's invasion of Earth be reversed? And so on.
> Is there a way to stop Ego's expansion?
The Power Stone is in Ravager's hands, and presumably, they could take him down.
What if Mr. Ditkovich fixed the damn door
Only if Rent was paid.
Only if they know how much I’ve sacrificed.
Jesus Christ Hulk's death was fucking brutal
/Spider-Man turning into a spider/
Producers: Too brutal
/Hulk getting fucking blown to bits/
Producers: Now that’s the shit
I've expected everyone to be covered by green flesh, but this is not that kind of show
They’re smelling Thor’s corpse 😩
that was just strange lol
Maybe, but who are we to judge?
Agreed. This and the password joke went too far for me lol
Coulson being a Cap fanboy has been canon since Avengers 1 though
Also the “what’s with the goth kid” line. Like this dude just went on a murderous spree and is cracking jokes after being defeated? Also Loki doesn’t look goth at all??
I took Hank's "what's with the goth kid" line as more snidey than a joke. And Pym is in his 70s, a skinny dude with long dark hair and a weird, horned outfit is likely to fit with whatever his perception of goth is.
I don't know about anyone else, but What If..? has done a good job of making me really nostalgic for Phase 1
Sort of a genius move tbh. Episode ends. “Hey, why not stream Thor while we have D+ open?”
You got Thor? My computer just pointed me at Loki again.
"I believe that in this universe, as in every other, *hope* never dies" - too fucking soon, Watcher, we were just at her grave.
I’m so hyped! Who else is ready to see the Avengers die? :D :D
He dies from Sugondese
Sugondese nuts lmao
He fucking explodes
He forgot to rinse before spitting the bullet out?
I'm more excited about Loki invading the Earth. Maybe here, he will be the king of Asgard.
Loki avenging Thor 🥰
Or he’s just using this as an excuse to invade lol
It's Loki after all 🤣
With the other Disney+ shows, it was like I blinked and there was a new episode, but somehow with *What If....?* , it feels like each episode comes out after a month.
Edit: I'm loving Coulson's crush on Thor. And Lake Bell is fantastic as Nat. Jeremy Renner.... ugh. So bad. Also,
Edit 2: So couple of weeks ago everyone was criticizing Sebastian Stan's voice acting but Jeremy Renner is off limits? Fuck off. I don't hate him, I don't like his acting. That's it. Stop making assumptions about my criticism of him.
I think I know why that is. It’s because once we finish an episode we kinda just finish. Sure the characters in What If.? might meet up in the finale but for these couple of first episodes the end of the episode really just means the end of the story.
The other shows had episodic stories so when the episode finished we just began waiting to see what would happen next. We filled our time with speculation and theories because we couldn’t have been satisfied. These What If..? episodes don’t leave much more. So we finish, discuss the episode and then what? The next episode is gonna be different.
I’m not saying anthology is bad or anything I’m honestly LOVING it but it is the reason these episodes feel like a huge wait.
This makes so much sense. Each ep is only 30 mins and it's self contained. Love the show but after Loki & WandaVision especially it's a different vibe to not have a whole cacophony of speculation between each ep.
I didn't think Jeremy Renner did a bad job
This week was just ”What if Coulson was gay?”
Renner sleep with your girl or something?
I think this episode had the best and most realistic approach to the butterfly effect.
I really liked episode 2 but come on, T’Challa convinced Thanos to be a good guy? Funny, but not totally realistic.
Also I know this takes place after the original TVA was overwritten by Kang, but I feel like that was President Loki lol.
It's What If, it doesn't need to be realistic
But it should at least be internally consistent with its own logic. The nexus event for episode 2's reality wouldn't have changed Thanos as a person prior to him meeting T'Challa, so how is it that the headstrong, determined, driven Thanos was swayed from his plan that he fully believed was for the greater good of all the universe by a single conversation with some good-natured guy from Earth?
I honestly feel like so many people's opinions of Episode 2 were impacted by Chadwick Boseman's appearance in the episode. He was fantastic, but the writing for that episode was lackluster at best.
>The nexus event for episode 2's reality wouldn't have changed Thanos as a person prior to him meeting T'Challa
There's no way for us to know that. Yondu sending his crew to Earth might not be the Nexus event, it could've been a sprawling cosmic incident that preoccupied him and Thanos. Like, early Ragnarok, or a resurgent Kree war. We see the smallest sliver of these universes, we don't know the full story.
Given that Uatu frames the story as the nexus event being Yondu farming out the abduction rather than handling it himself, and that Korath pretty much describes the exact same Thanos we know from the main MCU when asking how T'Challa changed his mind, we have a pretty strong case for saying we do, definitively, know that.
We have to assume that all the events/components necessary to understand the story are present, so we can only go off of what's presented in the narrative. Otherwise you can just kind of make up whatever to justify aspects of the narrative, thus making it entirely immune to criticism.
Didn't like how Sif doesn't try to stop Loki at the end of Episode 3? Well, maybe that's because she was more on Loki's side because this version of Loki had never cut off her hair and was generally kinder to her.
Didn't think it made sense that Red Skull's plan B in Episode 1 was so drastically different from his Plan A? Perhaps it was because he'd somehow gotten a vision of his future self from touching the Tesseract, and that altered his decision-making.
(To be clear, I don't have an issue with either of the above points as they appear in-story, but I'm saying that it's just wild to me to try and justify things in a narrative by saying "well there was probably some stuff that happened outside of the narrative that was important enough to impact the plot, but not important enough to actually show the audience")
Something unrealistic about Episode 1 was how Fury and Barton still ended up the same in the future as they do in the sacred timeline, despite a nexus event almost 70 years earlier.
Fittingly, the primary criticism of that episode being that it was essentially the same story with two characters switching roles makes this ending more plausible.
But yeah, I think if we consider how Steve's character would differ from Peggy's in the intervening years (and factoring in the absence of the Winter Soldier), it does seem less likely.
My theory has been the branches we see in the Loki finale and What-If were all previously pruned. So, I immediately thought of this Loki as being President Loki.
I hope they explain why Odin or Frigga never avenged Thor's death by fucking up the Earth like they would in the comics
Odin was in Odin Sleep at the time in the MCU, right? Loki was king and could just do as he pleased tho, so you sorta got your wish!
Heh. That *is* fair, though a scene of Hank Pym getting bitchslapped by an angry Odin would've been funny.
Yep, Odin was out of commission, they even had Sif hint at it with her only line:
> He's not wrong, the Allfather would want us to listen
I wonder what Odin would do once he woke up from the Odinsleep
Feel guilty about banishing Thor to Earth?
Carol’s about to speed run the first Avengers movie.
The real trouble starts when Odin wakes up. His son dead, Asgard's armies defeated by Midgard, who knows how he'd react.
First on-screen appearance of Betty Ross in the MCU in 13 years.
That doesn’t look like Liv Tyler at all though lol
If the actors aren't in an active contract with Marvel which has been updated to include the rights to use their image, then the character can't look like the actor.
There was a news scoop about a year ago that actors contracts were updated to include Disney+, and I'm sure this aspect was apart of it as well since What If? goes on for multiple seasons.
Tony, Steve, Natasha, Peter Parker, all the extras in the background, none of them look like their counterparts. They look close enough to their character design, but their face doesn't look like the actor's face.
However, it's also just the style of the show, it isn't photorealistic and it's honestly my only major issue with the show's look, that the faces seem a bit bloated and unexpressive. This means that even actors they do have the rights to don't look 100% right, Agent coulson and Peter Quill are the two main ones that stand out to me as not looking like their actor despite both being in contract. Maybe Pratt didn't agree to be in the project, but Clark Greggs voicing Coulson so there's no excuse there.
But because Tom Holland's contract is with Sony, Marvel where incapable of using him, just like they were incapable of using OG members who left after endgame and already said their goodbyes. I'm sure Chris Evans at least would like to return in 10-15 years, but one year is too quick to go back into another contract.
From what we've seen so far Tony and Steve look exactly like Evans and Downey.
Nat is a hard one because face-wise Scarlett Johansson is just very pretty and symmetrical. She doesn't have defining facial hair or a recognisable nose. Nat would always just look like a pretty redhead.
And Peter is supposed to be aged up at least 6 years in his Zombies appearance (although it doesn't make sense because Tom Holland is already older than Peter at that age so he's unlikely to change much face-wise).
Okay but was Hope killed by Bucky??
- From the episode all we know is Hope died in Odessa, in 2009, on a SHIELD mission
- But In Captain America: The Winter Solider, Natasha says she got shot in the stomach in 2009 outside Odessa by the Winter Soldier, when she was protecting the nuclear engineer.
So, What If Fury sent Hope to transport the nuclear engineer out of Odessa instead of Natasha?
[Ambush in Odessa](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Ambush_in_Odessa)
Amazing attention to detail - good eye!
That HAS to be it. Good catch.
Loki doing an illusion of Fury to stop Hank was awesome
Yellowjacket Hank in general was insane in this one. I almost didn’t recognise him.
This episode was way less fast paced and actually let moments breathe, definitely my favorite episode for the murder mystery stuff
So the new Avengers team is:
Carol and Steve? How the fuck are they supposed to stop Loki?
Captain Marvel ramming herself through Asgardian troops and ships or a 1v1 with Loki might be enough lol
I dunno. She needed all the lady Avengers to warp speed through the Chitauri /s
I imagine it would involve Rhodey as well, maybe thats also when Fury turns to Wakanda for help as well
I would say this could definitely cause Wakanda to out itself much sooner. Hell, Ghost and Winter Soldier are out there somewhere as well.
Ooh, Ghost would totally become an Avenger in this timeline! Damn. Now I really want to write that fanfiction.
I mean, Carol will put up a helluva fight, but uh RIP Steve.
Maybe the Ancient One moseys over for an assist.
She'd probably wait for Strange tbh. Or, she'd fast forward Stephen's timeline and have him become Sorceror Supreme in 2011.
What if Steve picked up Thor’s Hammer though? That would be a pretty powerful duo
I was thinking the same. Steve with the Hammer and Captain Marvel would be more than enough to beat Loki.
If they get Rhodey into Tony's suit too, you have 70% of the Avengers there powerwise anyways. It's not like Hawkeye and Black Widow would have made much of a difference in a straight up fight. So the only thing you need is a Hulk stand-in and your're good to go.
Maybe Abomination takes the serum and stays sane enough to fight? Or Hydra activates the WS to fight alongside them? The ancient one is out there, too. And Wakanda might not be on board with the whole enslavement of earth...
Loads of ways to go.
Honestly the thought of Hydra activating all of their sleeper cells because Earth is controlled by the *wrong dictator* is too funny to pass up
I really hope this universe will be continued, seems to be so far the most interesting
i feel like hydra is petty enough to do something like that
What u mean, carol herself can take out Loki and he’s army, she doesn’t even need steve
This episode and the zombie one are the two I'm looking forward to most!
Edit : 8th actually
Hank Pym's costume looks like a cross between Yellowjacket, the Wasp, and Ant-Man. Love it.
So when’s the nexus event for this timeline?
When SHIELD recruited Hope? When Hope “died”? When Stark was assassinated?
Yeah I’d say shield recruited hope. I don’t believe she had any associations to shield in the main MCU. Thus she died and all the other events unfolded.
maybe what if hank told hope what really happened to her mother? seems pretty simple and i’m suprised they didn’t give an explicit reason like in the other episodes
Whatever it was, it led to Hope joining SHIELD, either believing them to be doing good work or wanting to infiltrate the organization (similar to her role in Ant-Man).
Given Hank's opinion of SHIELD, I imagine whatever it was had to have affected how he spoke about them over the years, or how Hope viewed her mother's death.
If I were writing this and needed to explain it, I'd say Hank decided to lie to Hope about Janet's death (or be honest, I forget if the explanation about her death was to Scott or to Hope). This resulted in Hope viewing joining SHIELD as a way to follow in her mother's footsteps. Once she died, Hank blamed himself and SHIELD, ultimately channelling that hatred towards Fury.
Or, Hope picked up a different flyer on career day.
I love Watcher in the background of the San Francisco shot .... well, watching
really liked that hank was yellow jacket and not just evil ant-man
As a matter of fact the yellow jacket identity comes from a storyline where Hank went crazy and became a villain for a little bit.
someone enjoyed that hulk scene for a completely different reason than the animators intended...
Excuse me what
Whenever Black Widow speaks, I only hear Poison Ivy
God damn did Hank Pym looked cracked out. Poor bastard did too many Particles
Pym Particles, not even once
they done blowed up the Hulk
It looked like a real horrible way to die too, even Hulk himself was panicking.
Love the reveal of the murderer. The scene in the graveyard is a delight, it pushes some of my favorite brain buttons: parallel stories showing future characters interact with past films. Seeing Pym and Carol (even for a sec) with Phase One Fury is a treat.
Coulson and Fury were also lots of fun. Is this the most we've seen them interact? They shared a ton of lines.
The only person who loves Steve Rogers more than Bucky does is Coulson
Decent episode. Never really thought about it before but Ant-Man would actually be a decent threat to humanity.
*looks at comics Age of Ultron* Indeed.
looks at Thanos's butthole
I'm surprised Maria Hill wasn't in this one - wonder which episode Cobie Smulders is due for?
Lol I stopped and rewound the part where Widow is looking at the files and Maria Hill was one of the files that flew by, as was Pierce.
But technically she was mentioned at least, ha.
So that’s how Antman can kill Thanos XD
So Loki defeated Hank Pym in what was the morning… the following day, Earth got bitch slapped. I’d say that’s the fastest invasion of a planet in any form of media I can remember. Shit, every other alien race took their sweet time!!!
EDIT: and then I forgot to add, once I saw Carol… I thought, well… that was the shortest reign of Earth by an alien… back to work on Monday morning!
this is what happens when Loki doesn't lack conviction, I suppose. Good for him, honestly.
Loki is Taliban confirmed
Oh man. A Marvel detective episode? Can't fucking wait, let's go!
They should've started with this episode for the season. It's amazing
So you’re telling me that Hank Pym/Janet/Hope/even Scott could decimate the Avengers? I love it
Under a lot of very specific circumstances, sure.
Tony was already dying *and* it was a stealth kill.
Thor was rendered mortal *and* taken by surprise.
Banner had to be attacked while he was Banner, and not Hulk.
Clint is just a normie *and* he was caught off-guard while grieving.
Natasha is again just a normie *and* also cornered and alone (although I kinda wish she'd survived).
Tony would lose regardless. In civil war they were in open battle and Scott was able to fuck up his armour.
This was propably the only time in entire Thor's lifespan when Ant-Man could hurt him, he was really lucky with that
So, we can finally discredit that 'leak' from about a week ago with plot summaries for every episode.
This week's described how "Fury needs to assemble a new team of Avengers if he has any chance at saving Earth from Loki" which is just not right.
eh If you base it around the final minute it is kinda right
Sorry I should've put the whole sentence:
> With the true killer remaining at large, Fury needs to recruit a new team of Avengers if they want to have any chance at saving Earth from the Asgardian forces
Definitely not right, this makes it sound like the episode was centered around recruiting new Avengers *before* stopping the killer.
It really isn't. It gives a completely wrong impression of what happened in the show. if I described last week's episode as "Ego meet Quill on earth" while that may happen, it's not really what the show's about.
Even being as charitable as possible I'm gonna say that two Captain's and a Coulson isn't a team.
Captain Marvel is a team by herself.
I like how I knew they were going to die but was still shocked to see Tony just drop like that
cant believe Hank Pym 1v5 the OG Avengers, What if Hank Pym and Loki teamed up in Avengers 1?
"It's Hope, It's all about Hope"
Ah, so it is Hank Pym
My dumbass thought it was her. Like Evil Hope. (I think her character is evil in the comics.)
I'm so glad that Betty Ross finally returned to the MCU, hope she returns in live action in She-Hulk!!!
Fun fact, she was voiced by Stephanie panisello, who voiced Claire Redfield in the Resident Evil 2 remake and resident evil infinite darkness
I know a lot of the returning voices aren't doing so hot.
But come on Jeremy, try a little.
You make Sebastian Stan sound like Mel Blanc.
Am I the only one who thinks he was just fine? He wasn't even in it that long
Lol Jermey sounded kinda like his audio was cut and spliced together. So unnatural.
They also animate Hawkeye with much more expressions than I’m used to from the live action iteration. The way he was animated didn’t match the monotonous quality of his line delivery.
Lake Bell's second performance as a comicbook redhead.
She did pretty good too.
Oh Hank Pym, you old dog, you!
And yeah, of fucking course Loki was gonna 'extend his stay' on Earth, loll
I hope we get Uatu in live action, such a cool character.
From the moment Jeffrey Wright was cast, I expected him to crossover into live action. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s announced as part of the MoM cast after What-If ends.
Hahahaha, Loki becoming King of Midgard, finally.
I can't believe alot of people eople who got early access said this was the weakest episode of the three. Definitely my favorite.
I would 100% be fine with Lake Bell playing a Natasha variant in a live action Secret Wars movie.
I imagine the Avengers roster of this branch timeline might be
- Captain Marvel
- Captain America
- War Machine (if he still gets the Mark II retrofitted by Hammer, despite his best friend’s death)
- Black Panther (assuming the Asgardians didn’t find Wakanda)
- Falcon (assuming he has access to his wings/ considered worthy by Fury)
The Eternals would still sit this one out. Red Guardian is in prison. Most of everyone else never got their powers.
Shang-Chi is still a kid being trained with Wenwu during these events. Source: I saw the film
The Romanoff voice actress is.... very different, yeah
I don't know if I agree, I felt there were quite a few times in the episode where she sounded exactly like Scarlett
Not sure, I actually did like her but I might be biased from enjoying her on the Harley Quinn show.
Pretty good episode. Not only is Marvel Studios officially referencing Fury’s Big Week but Tony’s birthday in the MCU is May 29th. May 30th 2011 or Tony, Fury, and Natasha in the donut shop was on a Monday just like this episode says.
I just had the horrible realization that someone is probably going to get off to the Hulk exploding part
Wow, Banner looks way more like Ed Norton in this, but is voiced by Ruffalo, that's creepy
I’m glad you noticed that too. The Hulk was definitely based off Ruffalo’s design, but human Bruce was a weird mish mash of Norton with hints of Ruffalo thrown in.
Another strong episode. Coulson was the highlight for me and I'm glad they kept the reveal out of the opening credits (i.e. the cast list). Only real complaint is that I wish there was more time to explore the altered history of some of these characters. Also we're definitely going to be getting eventual follow-up episodes to last week and this week's episode right (Season 2?)? Otherwise it'd be a major case of blue balls for the audience.
I love Coulson
Glad to see Clark Gregg playing Coulson in animated form again after Ultimate Spider-Man!
Nice touch having Coulson’s, Steve related password include his birthday.
So in terms of remaining cast members we now have:
* ~~Samuel L. Jackson~~
* ~~Mark Ruffalo~~
* ~~Michael Douglas~~
* ~~Tom Hiddleston~~
* ~~Clark Gregg~~
* ~~Frank Grillo~~
* ~~Jaimie Alexander~~
* Angela Bassett
* Paul Bettany
* Leslie Bibb
* Clancy Brown
* Don Cheadle
* Benedict Cumberbatch
* David Dastmalchian
* Kat Dennings
* Jon Favreau
* Jeff Goldblum
* Chris Hemsworth (he wasn't credited but the little grunt Thor made sounded just like Hemsworth)
* Rachel House
* Michael B. Jordan
* Evangeline Lilly
* Rachel McAdams
* Natalie Portman
* Paul Rudd
* Andy Serkis
* Cobie Smulders
* Georges St-Pierre
* Tilda Swinton
* Emily VanCamp
* Taika Waititi
* Benedict Wong
Some of these I was convinced would appear in this episode (Cobie Smulders, Emily VanCamp, Natalie Portman, Kat Dennings, Leslie Bibb) but I guess they're being saved for different episodes.