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Texas school administrator says classrooms should show opposing view of Holocaust

Texas school administrator says classrooms should show opposing view of Holocaust

carlonseider

The opposing perspective would be what, exactly? That it didn’t happen? That it was right? Surely books they suggest those things have no place in classrooms.


[deleted]

ive talked to a couple of those guys. they'll smile and agree 'oh yeah definitely some were killed, a lot and we're against that,' but then go into the numbers being all wrong, theres no way it was anywhere near 6,000,000, and then share all the good things the nazi's were doing. a couple of them (they really dont like you calling them nazis, prefer national socialists, anyway so call them nazis) showed up at an evening library talk about the psychology of free speech (something like this) and literally started passing out nazi literature. this wussy professor entertained them, seemingly follow through on his goal of teaching freedom of speech and non response. noone was as shocked as i was, apparently, so i stood up, challenged them, made a scene. there was one hard headed skinhead who was coaching the pal he had come with not to talk to me; after the talk, i spoke with this second guy for an hour and seemingly softened him a bit. odd place for it, but being a good listener, made it easier for him to see there was no ground to stand on. that was rambly. anyway, theyre out there. slippery like snakes when you talk to them, full of reasons and opinions.


GeorgeEBHastings

Like, a year a go, I argued with one of these nutjobs on /r/conspiracy (going there was a mistake, I know). He was like "I've been to Auschwitz. I was in the chambers. The doors were weak wood--any reasonably well-fed person could have broken the door down if their lives depended on it." Sure, buddy, let's see you try to do just that while you're struggling to breathe and unable to see but for the burning in your eyes, and knowing full well there's a contingent of armed murderers on the other side just waiting for you to try something. Also wood deteriorates over time. Also this person was probably lying.


Iyzuku

r/topmindsofreddit has been compiling examples of r/conspiracy users being openly pro Nazi for years now and they've done a good job of it too


James324285241990

What is "widely debated" or "currently controversial" about the holocaust? Fucking Southlake.


James324285241990

JUST so everyone knows, Southlake is where the fight and controversy over teaching critical race theory in schools began. It's also where several *Dallas Cowboys* ($$$$$) have left because their kids were treated with blatant and direct racism. My husband grew up in Keller, which is next door, and this place is known to be rich, white, and Christian. And they like to keep it that way.


MyKidsArentOnReddit

I was going to make some snarky comment about how they'd never teach the "other side" of slavery or Jim Crow, but then I read the whole thread and that's literally what they're trying to do.


quinneth-q

Yeah legit. I swear there was also something about firing teachers who imply that racism is a fact (as in, that it definitely exists). Texas is fucking terrifying right now


Zoklett

It blows my mind that, as a country, at one point we all agreed that Nazis were bad and we should fight them and somehow that's no longer the sentiment for everyone


Causerae

Tbf, not everyone believed the Nazis were bad, at the time. US was isolationist and late entering the war. But at least most of us agreed that was the right decision, in retrospect. That lasted for several decades. Now, people have literally forgotten, with the expected consequences.


Layer7Burrito

In a lovely example of Horseshoe Theory, the 'America First Committee' in the early 1940s was a large anti-war organization that featured both Communists and Fascists (back when they were bros, but then so often they overlap). It wasn't unintentional that some guy that was unfortunately president in 2016 adopted the exact same slogan, pitching similar populism, and getting support from pro-Fascists and some idiot far Left bros as well.


awmn4A

Check out The Plot Against America if this is interesting to you (both the book and the HBO series). The HBO series has an accompanying podcast talking about what it was like to make the show during the Trump era


lemon_lime2000

While it is admirable what the US did, there actually was quite a bit of support for Nazi ideology and Hitler stateside in the 1930s and 1940s. Not only was antisemitism high, but there were literal Nazi Bund meetings being held from NYC to LA, many of which were targeted and disrupted by Jewish gangs. Despite the fact that these Naz-sympathizers were advocating for Jewish deaths, these Jewish gangs had a ground rule that not one Nazi sympathizer could be killed (beating them up was ok though). (https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/gangsters-vs-nazis). Organizations like the ‘Friends of New Germany’ held marches with Nazi flags through public areas like Madison Square Garden. Police at the time allowed it because it was seen as a free speech issue. When World War II started, a large portion of Americans were opposed to going to war with the Allies, despite widespread knowledge of Jews being persecuted. Many of those opposed to the war sympathized with the Nazis. Especially in the Midwest, where a large portion of the population was of German descent, many advocated for isolationism and non-involvement of the USA in the war. Organizations such as the Mothers’ movement opposed the war and supported the Nazis because they saw them as preferable to communism spreading through Europe. Many religious Christians also believed that if the communists took over Europe Christianity would be dead. Popular religious leaders like Catholic Priest Father Charles Coughlin even said ‘Must the entire world go to war for only 600,000 Jews in Germany?’.


Gen_Nathanael_Greene

Don't forget *The Passing of The Great Race* by Madison Grant that was published in 1916. This book would help to inspire Hitler.


awmn4A

And US race laws were used as a model for Nazi Germany. Though they thought our “one drop rule” was far too extreme.


Iyzuku

That seemed to be the case for Denmark during the actual holocaust since they had such a strong resistance movement that almost all the Jews of that country were saved and it was even backed by the church


leoll_1234

I’m glad holocaust denial is illegal here in Germany


Nyx_Shadowspawn

I frikkin wish it was in the US. It should be!!


leblumpfisfinito

Why? It’s not like it’ll make antisemites disappear. It would just make it harder to find out who the antisemites are. Even today, Germany, and other European countries, still have major issues with antisemitic hate crimes — to a far greater extent than the US.


Nyx_Shadowspawn

Because it lets the spread and teach their hate and "alternative" history to others more readily, without any way to stop them from doing so.


leblumpfisfinito

Well obviously this shouldn't be allowed in a classroom setting. I meant from the perspective of free speech. Policing free speech has clearly not stopped antisemitic attacks in Europe though. I'm a believer in allowing antisemites being allowed to express themselves, so it's easier to point out who they are, judge them for it and know which people to avoid. Also, it's good to know what the common talking points of antisemites are, because then you can offer rebuttals to them, which is very easy and satisfying to do.


Layer7Burrito

Who has actually policed free speech? American companies provide platforms for racist Europeans to keep spewing on American platforms. It's like an attempt at gun control in a city when the suburbs around it make a point of selling guns. If the US didn't have its head up its ass about this, these corporations couldn't get away with being such platforms. It's as simple as fixing the DMCA to allow someone whose parent died of Covid after indoctrinating themselves on anti-vax propaganda to sue Facebook for not removing the content. This content isn't an opinion piece. It's political propaganda and malicious lies. Or if someone whose family member died in an antisemitic terrorism incident could sue Twitter for hosting racist content that indoctrinated the terrorist. These are private platforms, so nothing on them is actually related to 'Free Speech'. They're media channels and should be held to similar standards. You allow any idiot to post anything, you should be held accountable legally for damages. You'd be amazed how fast shit would change then.


leblumpfisfinito

Europe has policed free speech and it’s clearly been ineffective in preventing antisemitic hate crimes. Major platforms like Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. do abide by each county’s jurisdiction. However, obviously people will always find other corners of the internet to go to. Policing free speech has been extremely dangerous historically imo, as who decides what is and isn’t hate speech? Whichever president is in power? Historically, this has been used to suppress minority opinions. We already have laws for hate crimes anyway.


Layer7Burrito

This claim that acts like Europe has a Great Firewall that Google and Facebook somehow abide by is completely untrue. Someone in Europe doesn’t see racist, terrorist, anti Jewish content in Europe? The problem around the world has been accelerated by tech made and largely hosted on American platforms that hide behind DMCA protections. All it takes is making them legally and financially liable and they will find the will and technology to reduce the threat to democracies everywhere that their platform poses. This isn’t about an individual’s hate speech, it’s about the platforms promoting it as effective propaganda.


leblumpfisfinito

You seem to just not understand that there’s always ways around any censorship. Even in countries like China and North Korea, people always find a way around it. You haven’t addressed who exactly decides what is and isn’t “hate speech”. You also haven’t addressed the fact that Europe’s hate speech laws have been completely ineffective in stopping anti Semitic hate crimes, which is a far bigger problem than in America. Why are there far more antisemetic hate crimes in Europe than in America? Lastly, you also haven’t addressed the fact that policing free speech has historically been used as a tool to suppress minority opinions.


Layer7Burrito

I have explained it, you just don't want to comprehend. Let me repeat - I agree that people, individually, can and will say hateful things, racist things. I don't believe a government should be policing what they say, individually, unless it's literally conspiring for terrorism, which has already happened via Facebook. I think they shouldn't be given the platform to spread it. The platforms aren't the government. The platforms (Facebook etc) are a private forum, and have avoided being liable for the content posted on their sites. It has been proven that their algorithms *promote* racist propaganda, anti democracy propaganda, anti science propaganda, anti Jewish propaganda, etc. They hide a profit seeking recklessness behind claims of 'Free Speech' even though they don't have any such legal reason to not enforce their own TOS. They also promote astroturfed 'Free Speech' claims that get echoed by people as a lame defense - Facebook isn't the government, and doesn't have any human or civil rights as a concern. They've done zero to stop massive violations of human and civil rights from being organized, promoted and coordinated on their platform. The government doesn't even need to pass laws that force Facebook to restrict speech. It simply needs to remove the protection in the DMCA that allows Facebook to wash their hands from the consequences of counting money and allowing the scum of the earth to use their platform as a propaganda tool. So spare me the 'free speech' misdirection. This isn't at all about that. It's merely about treating Facebook and others like a media company, liable the same way any news organization is.


BlueGrotta

This. While I think you are a moron to deny it, I don't think it should be illegal. I support free speech even if I HATE what you are saying.


Gen_Nathanael_Greene

I disagree with this. Freedom of speech is vitally important. If we begin banning the speech that we don't like, it just snowballs and before we know it we no longer have freedom of speech. Besides we have historical evidence on our side that is irrefutable, so they can spread their bullshit but we have the facts.


Nyx_Shadowspawn

When places like Texas is apparently trying to start teaching dangerous, antisemetic falsehoods right alongside history as yet another, equally valid version of fact, that's far beyond the range of freedom of speech.


Gen_Nathanael_Greene

And I seriously doubt that this will actually make curriculum. I don't see this being taught in a public school setting, maybe a private school setting, which is fine because again, the historical evidence, all sources of history regarding the Holocaust that is primary and secondary, backed by evidence is all in favor that the Holocaust did in fact occur. None of the opposite views have any evidence to support their claims that could legitimately challenge what we have to provide. The historical community stands with us. Historians and scholars alike. We can't limit freedom of speech because some people are hateful. That just limits our own liberties. Give an inch, and surely the Government will take a yard.


someguy1847382

Are you not paying any attention over the last decade? Facts have stopped mattering and to nearly a third of the country the opinions of experts is a bad thing, sources and evidence are fake and the lack of evidence is “proof”. Because we continue to allow lies under the guise of “free speech” it will only continue getting worse. I agree that allowing opinions and free speech are important but there needs to be a line for the health of society. Allowing lies to stand equal to the truth gives the lie implicit support and legitimization which erodes our ability to not only teach truth but have a set of agreed upon facts as a society which will ultimately lead to outright violence from the growing faction of “alternative facts” folks. And guess who the targets of that violence will be?


Nyx_Shadowspawn

Yes, my sentiments exactly, thank you.


Gen_Nathanael_Greene

Freedom of speech should stand as unbridled as it is intended to. The only line tjat exist is outlined in the fighting words clause. Regardless of certain trends... facts and evidence still prevail in the very end. It's not for us to decide what speech should or should not be permitted as then we become authoritarian. The Daughters of The Confederacy were quite successful in teaching in the South that The Civil War was not fought over slavery, but rather it was the Union encroaching upon states' rights. This has been false and historians and scholors have worked hard to reverse that and it is showing. I can not abide nor stand any who seek to restrict individual liberties in any capacity as there is zero excuse for it. It simply does not end by banning X about Y. It will soon include A, B, C and D about E, F, G and H. It certainly will not stop antisemitism or anti-Semitoc speech. As a Jewish American, I can not ever in good conscience dictate how another individual is allowed to speak. That is not my place. My place is to combat that with facts as a historian on my platform of free speech. These lies are only as impactful as long it is shown which has source material that can be tracked and which does not. Where do the sources originate and the authenticity of said source material. This will prove pivotal. And as I've mentioned, I seriously doubt that an alternative view will be taught in public schools given how overwhelming the evidence of the Holocaust is.


someguy1847382

According to most recent polls about half of Americans think the civil war was about states rights and younger people are more likely to think that than older people. This has been holding steady for about a decade. That’s hardly a victory for historians and scholars (in fact I’d say it’s a substantial failure that almost half of Americans hold a straight lie as the truth). Facts and evidence never win against well financed propaganda and lies, at least not until substantial damage has been caused and sometimes not even then. Did you know that 11% of millennials and gen z Americans believe that Jewish people caused the Holocaust? Denialism and anti-semitism are growing because of “unbridled” free speech and allowing lies to stand equal to truth. Freedom of speech, if important, needs to be limited to be protected. If fighting words are a limit then why should outright lies and allowed to stand as well when it has been clearly shown over they last few years that they directly lead to the incitement of violence and harm that is used as a reason to ban “fighting words”. Simply put, you’re wrong because the truth is under financed. Disbelief in the Holocaust is rising and allowing verifiably false things to be taught equal to truth in the classroom is irrevocably harmful to society as a whole. The truth has been losing for a decade because lies have been allowed to stand equal to truth and the truth and goodness don’t always win in the end. Your view is naive as hell. I suggest you take some time to see how these people think to realize how dangerous this actually is and why. When lack of evidence is spun into “proof” because of a wide ranging conspiracy you can’t just allow it to stand because of some libertarian bullshit. When it comes to the classroom, free speech shouldn’t exist at all if it pushes back against truth and facts. Classrooms are for learning, not propaganda and children aren’t equipped to differentiate between sources and legitimacy (we should be doing a better job of that too). Simply put the administrator should be fired for even suggesting this because they’re acting as an agent of the state saying Holocaust denial is a valid viewpoint. We aren’t talking about some “public square” here, we are talking about the state and state actions which are different than the liberties of a common individual.


Gen_Nathanael_Greene

And how many Americans were polled precisely concerning the issue of what The Civil War was fought over? I am an historian and from my experiences and teaching, most individuals seem to believe that slavery was the primary cause, if not one of the primary causes. Propaganda can be defeated through overwhelming facts. These individuals must merely be shown and taught as such. Even in the face of growing denialism, I fully support unbridled free speech. I am progressive liberty and any American should be as well. Where are is Holocaust denial being taught in equal in public schools? I don't see this being taught in public schools, of which is funded through tax dollars. I'll take my libertarian views and dangerous freedom over your cherry-pickikg liberal bullshit in which you decide what is legal to say and what isn't. Don't even get me started on the fucking useless cops who would enforce idiotic laws, like suppression of free speech. Your view is naive, I believe. You wish to live in a world where the government holds your hand. You don't fight antisemitism by reducing individual rights. That's the cowardly way. You do not protect free speech through limitation of speech. That's absurd and makes absolutely zero sense! Freedom of speech *is* important, there is no *if* in the equation. Our Bill of Rights is all equally important as they are restrictions on what the government can do. Fighting words are a limit because there's a huge difference in me telling you that I'm going to kill you vs telling you that 6 million Jews didn't die. Free speech should exist in classrooms. It should exist everywhere. You do not get to dictate where I exercise my rights as an American. Free speech does not cease to exist in a school or in government buildings (which public schools are).... should the administrator should be fired. Sure. He clearly overstepped his boundaries by stating that the opposite view must be taught as there is no opposite view or side to what happened to our people except myths.


someguy1847382

You’re going off the rails a bit, the argument is about what should be taught, by the government, in a government institution. Not what people can say anywhere which is a different argument. Here’s the source for the most comprehensive poll https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2011/04/08/about-the-survey-302/ other more recent polls give similar data. Propaganda can’t be defeated simply by overwhelming facts any longer in all cases, less so if the propaganda is presented as a legitimate alternative within a classroom. If we teach something and then present the opposing view on a factual event what we are saying is that both views are legitimate and that facts sources and research hold no weight (like teaching creationism alongside evolution for example) it undermines the foundation of scholarship. Government agents (teachers) simply should not have the free speech to teach or present ideas not supported by facts or scholarship which is what I have thus far, admittedly in an inelegant manner, been trying to say. With what I have seen in the past thirty years, as a trained political scholar, I don’t trust that something like this wouldn’t happen in a US school. There’s literally a movement right now to teach whitewashed pro-America lies in our schools. The Holocaust and genocide as a whole is barely taught and right wing forces are attempting to move backwards as we speak. I’m not talking about government taking away rights here, I’m talking about limiting what the government is able to teach and the ideas it exposes children too specifically because we don’t teach critical thinking. If people want to say stupid shit in the public square that’s on them and the platforms that exist, we can fight the lies there. For the record, free speech doesn’t exist in schools at all for the students (I have two teens and an elementary child, I’m very familiar). We can argue if it should but simply put it doesn’t. What the difference between “I’m going to kill you” and “you shouldn’t exist, you’re not even a person”? What’s the difference, the real substantive difference, between hate speech which invariably leads to violence and fighting words? If one is ok then both should be and if one isn’t ok than neither should be.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ScruffleKun

>First amendment goes out the window when it enables Nazis. That's my constitution. You'd better pray that Neo Nazis never get into power then. Anyone that wishes to remove the first amendment is tying a noose for their own neck.


Enjolras55

It should also go out the window when fascists are actively spreading propaganda that is destroying the foundation of Democracy. It's ironic that Free Speech is contributing to the collapse of Democracy.


thatgeekinit

The paradox of tolerance is that the intolerant illiberal elements will happily use our tolerance to destroy tolerance and the tolerant.


BlueGrotta

I knew the paradox of tolerance would get mentioned (always does). It's a theory and not actually an answer.


Layer7Burrito

When Facebook, Twitter and others see profit in giving a platform to racists, terrorists, and anti-science kooks, they'll astroturf 'Free Speech' concerns endlessly. They forget that they could only start and exist in a democracy. Some billionaires are just fine with authoritarians, as long as they let them keep making money. Not surprisingly, this requires sacrificing 'Free Speech' as soon as democracy dies (China, Russia, Turkey, etc), but they comply with that or have the state squash them (China, Russia, ...). In conclusion, never take a profit making machine at its word when it comes to democracy or human rights. They don't care about either one bit.


BlueGrotta

To be clear, it's illegal in Germany but little to nothing gets done about it. Charges get dropped all the time or the sentences are very light.


[deleted]

i dont buy this argument. this has not stopped anti-Semitism in germany. i like free speech as it plays out in us law, that's fine for me. i mean, maybe extremists groups, laws that would help would maybe allow for looser reading on threats of violence to allow for easier prosecution, and with that better spying laws (very thorny in us, like free speech). but i think we're going the wrong way to wish for people to be persecuted for denying the holocaust, that's only goign to propel a further type of extremism.


BlueGrotta

> i dont buy this argument. this has not stopped anti-Semitism in germany. This. It's like having gun free zones. Yeah...that will stop gun violence.


Enjolras55

Ironically, I wish I could move to some place like Germany. I hate the US. It's going downhill so fast.


JoeFarmer

Germany isnt great.


Enjolras55

Way better than the US.


aJewfromBrooklyn

lol okay. they have their own massive issues with racism and bigotry


Enjolras55

Yeah they do. Still a more stable country (currently it's probably the most stable country in the world or one of them), and they actively stand up against their extremists. The US embraces extremists.


aJewfromBrooklyn

I think you spend way too much on time. I haven't met any extremists doing anything. It's not as common as you think here.


Enjolras55

Lol, yes it really is. Republicans are literally trying to overthrow Democracy. Antisemitism has skyrocketed. You're obviously not paying attention.


BlueGrotta

Antisemitism has risen worldwide. It's not just a "Trump did it" thing.


Gen_Nathanael_Greene

Oh, yes. The Republicans. It's also the Democrats. Antisemitism has only gotten worse since Biden took office. It's not a one-party issue. It's an issue with the US government as a whole. And who has voted against funding to Israel? I'd say that you aren't truly paying attention either.


Enjolras55

Antisemitism hasn't gotten worse from Biden being in office. This all stems from Trump.


aJewfromBrooklyn

snore


Enjolras55

Right. It's literally happening, but you want to pretend it's not. Got it. Not wasting my time with you.


JoeFarmer

Nah, too auth-right for me. I enjoy having free speech, even if I often dont like what is said. But hey, some people like legislating away everyone they find distasteful. Germany certainly is efficient at that.


Enjolras55

What good is Free Speech if it destroys Democracy like what is happening in the US?


JoeFarmer

When a government has the power to ban speech, what prevents it from banning your speech? Imagine if the state had the power to ban speech when Trump was sworn in and republicans controlled the house and senate. What sort of speech do you think they'd ban? The constitution serves to limit government power and recent history has shown just how much we need it.


Layer7Burrito

Newflash: Facebook isn't The Government. Neither is Twitter or Reddit. And you don't have to ban antisemitism, you can make media channels like Facebook, Twitter, Reddit and Google (and that is exactly what they are) obey the same legal standards for content as any other media organization. Let people sue them for damages for not monitoring content too, especially if it ends in violence. That isn't a violation of free speech at all, nor do I give a shit if Facebook has to spend more of its profits on tech and people to deal with hate content, anti-democratic propaganda. Fuck that shit, you can't shout 'Fire' in a crowded theater, and you can't be a platform for insurrection and terrorism.


JoeFarmer

Newsflash? Where do you think I was talking about social media tos?


FlanneryOG

Me too!


BlueGrotta

I'll guess you voted for Biden?


Enjolras55

It's not going downhill because of Biden, it's going downhill because Republicans are actively destroying Democracy.


BlueGrotta

I'm not sure that the Republicans are the one trying to turn America into a third world dump.


Enjolras55

They absolutely are. Have you looked at what Texas is doing? It's like a 3rd world theocracy now. I've seen so many people leave or say they're leaving Texas as soon as they can, because the state is a horrible place to live and raise children now.


BlueGrotta

Oh gotcha. You were being sarcastic.


Enjolras55

Wasn't being sarcastic. I guess you don't pay attention to things that Republicans are actually doing.


icenoid

My brothers and I were bicycling in Germany maybe a decade back. We got passed by an old ford bronco flying a confederate flag. We told the people we were staying with that night about it and they explained that since the symbols of the Nazis are illegal in Germany, that those same idiots have taken on the symbols of the American confederacy.


BlueGrotta

100% They also use symbols that resemble Nazi ones where you damn well know what they are. Banning holocaust denial doesn't keep people from denying it.


JoeFarmer

Im certainly not. Im glad to live in a country that protects free speech, even if its speech I occasionally detest.


Layer7Burrito

With that attitude you almost ended living in a country with a fascist coup leading to an authoritarian Dear Leader for life. Let's not be stupid about freedoms. You're not free to be in a terrorist organization, and you shouldn't be free to promote the overthrow of democracy by force.


JoeFarmer

Not really. What do you think trump would have done with a republican majority in the house and Senate if there *werent* constitutional restrictions on government power? Dont be stupid about handing a democratic government *more* power by forfeiting your freedom of speech, of religion, of assembly. You dont always choose who gets elected.


Layer7Burrito

A school teaching lies is not exercising a free speech right. This is part of public education, not a personal statement. The issue with Trump was hardly free speech. He got elected by lies defended as free speech. His undermining of institutions was hardly about or restricted to speech. Free speech arguments where what media companies like Facebook used to excuse not removing propaganda and voter suppression.


JoeFarmer

Did you read the thread? This is a discussion about how germany bans certain speech as a proposed solution. If anything texas bill 3979 is further evidence of why states *shouldnt* control speech.


Layer7Burrito

Yep. And my point was that it doesn’t need to go as far in the US, but a private company’s platform doesn’t get to use a free speech defense.


donnie_darko222

kind of ironic that you're talking about infringing on freedom of speech when talking about the holocaust.. where (in nazi germany)literally censorship/freedom of speech snowballed to a point where the government could not only arrest you but execute you for saying things they didn't like.. if they're not actively trying to promote terrorism/nazi recruitment then there shouldnt be an issue


joofish

Also that wasn’t even a question. She brought up the Holocaust as her go to example of “widely debated and currently controversial” topic


Majestic_Curve_2042

Turns out the holocaust is widely debated and controversial issue in Texas. But if (((we))) control the media and push widely debated and controversial political agendas, then where will they buy the books from?(((us))).


hp1068

I'd love to think they want to teach the "opposing" view that 6 mil of us shouldn't have been murdered. Too bad I know better when it comes to Texas.


carlonseider

The opposing perspective would be what, exactly? That it didn’t happen? That it was right? Surely books they suggest those things have no place in classrooms.


db1139

I think this is less of a free speech issue and more of an education regulation issue. Why would you let individual teachers in public schools teach what they want? Sure, there are nuances in history that help with teaching, but that only goes so far. How far can our standards and practices in education fall?


BlueGrotta

This. I get what they were saying.


Causerae

In TX? Really far. There's no bottom.


AKA-aKa-AkA

I think the best Holocaust education is showing kids how easy it would have been for them to become nazis. Talk about the nazi youth programs the strategies of indoctrination and propaganda. Ect.


Shomer_Effin_Shabbas

Wow. Didn't know this history was up for debate.


GenericWhyteMale

Just another reason to not move to Texas or even visit anytime soon


aJewfromBrooklyn

Fuck Texas


GSDBUZZ

Watching the video on NBC news I was at least happy to see that many teachers at the session immediately and angrily responded with “what would be the opposing view to the holocaust?”


FlanneryOG

Texas is quickly becoming a fascist state. I will never step foot in that awful place again.


Aldoogie

Your homework assignment class is to play the 1st generation of Call of Duty, as both teams.


tembelina

And here I am in Sweden where the department of education suggested that history teachers should divide the students into groups and have them discuss “controversial” topics. The suggestion used the example of the Holocaust, where some groups of students should find arguments for that the Holocaust never happened from different sources. And then let the students debate. Thankfully, after public outrage, they’ve withdrawn their suggestion.


sagi1246

The Holocaust is obviously way too sensitive a topic, but the general idea of letting students debate complex issues, especially when one may not hold the opinions they are advocating for, is quite interesting. It's seems like a great way to develop skills like scepticism, rhetorics, and perspective-taking. And could also be very engaging and captivating, instead of the monotonous nature school can sometimes have.


tembelina

Absolutely, it can be a good way of learning criticism of sources, and just debate in general. But the Holocaust isn't a "controversial" topic, it happened. Full stop. Don't send kids to find arguments for this never happening when Holocaust denial is still an issue in Sweden. And to add insult to injury this was released on Wednesday, the very same day Sweden hosted "Malmö International Forum on Holocaust Remembrance and Combating Antisemitism".


Defient-Camera1593

I use to think Texas was a good place, in the last 5-7 years it has went to shit.


BlueGrotta

Thank the Californians for that.


Defient-Camera1593

Yes they ruined Colorado too, they ruin everything.


MagenTexas

Reading into this further, chiefly the [text of HB3979](https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/87R/billtext/html/HB03979F.htm), the only thing even remotely close to the whole "mandatory opposing view-points" is this: (h-3) For an social studies course in the required curriculum: (1) a teacher may not be compelled to discuss a particular current event or widely debated and currently controversial issue of public policy or social affairs; (2) a teacher who chooses to discuss a topic described by Subdivision (1) shall, to the best of the teacher's ability, strive to explore the topic from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective; This has NOTHING to do with textbooks, it has to do with teachers talking about current events(usually at the beginning of class, this is kind of a staple in most public Social Studies courses) that have to do with politics and social issues, and them not subjecting students to their own political views. The concerns of Ms/Mrs Peddy, or the "terrified" person who brought up the topic and recorded the meeting, are completely unfounded, and are likely just based on TL;DRing a sensationalized twitter post or news article. Furthermore, it is REQUIRED under the curriculum to focus on the issue of White Supremacy and Eugenics during their relevant period, and directly links to the holocaust in most Social Studies/History textbooks(it did when I was in school, and based on the newer stuff I've seen, still is).


texaskittyqueen

I’m from this area and had a horrible time in high school and I’m deeply ashamed of it. I love Texas as a whole; and it really does have a lot of rich culture and diversity. It’s so disgusting and disappointing that this is the image of Texas we are putting out to others, and I feel uncomfortable everytime I go back to the pit that is southlake.


barbiejet

If you actually read the article, the teachers Union and the legislator who wrote the bill actually disagree with her. In my view, it's good that this one person's misunderstanding of the law got exposed before it could be widely (and wrongly) applied. The title of the article is misleading.


BlueGrotta

I agree. I think the whole thing is confusing and led to even more confusion (although the majority of people I'd guess won't ever admit that).


CptBloodII

This isn’t a Texas thing. This is a “woke” thing. That’s what “gone off the rails” not Texas.


codulso

How is this a woke thing? This is from the anti-woke crowd. Own it.


johnisburn

Exactly this. This literally happened because a parent complained about their child reading a book about anti-racism ([this is the article the tweets link to](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/southlake-texas-holocaust-books-schools-rcna2965)). The Holocaust comment was the school administrator putting their foot in their mouth because they want to teach “opposing views” in the context of so called woke issues like anti-racism and the history of slavery. The administrator looping in Holocaust education in is as another “teach the controversy” topic is really just them accidentally taking their “anti-woke” argument to its natural conclusions.


CptBloodII

Lol...so let me understand this? You(let me assume a logical thinking adult) think that Texas is this monolithic object where everyone and everything acts and thinks the same way?


samswiss55

I think you're trying to argue this is outlier behavior and Texans on the whole don't think this but when they are coming from a position of power (as these issues in Texas commonly are) that argument holds no water.


Enjolras55

Texas is actively trying to reverse all history they don't like. They're banning teaching slavery and segregation, now they want to teach that the Holocaust may not have happened. Has nothing to do with "wokeness".


codulso

Never said that, you won't put words in my mouth.


MyKidsArentOnReddit

Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.


Throwawaymister2

Because Texas is known for being so woke...


Spy_v_Spy_Freakshow

Tell me again about antisemitism on the left


idan5

> Tell me again about antisemitism on the left As a left-leaning Jew, there's also plenty of Antisemitism on the left. If that's literally your first and only reaction to such an Antisemitic display from the right, it just makes it look like you don't care about Antisemitism, and that it's merely a political tool for you. Thanks for listening.


pineapple_bandit

Totally agree.


What_A_Hohmann

Teaching the "opposing perspective" on the Holocaust is literally telling kids "Here's the truth of what happened and here's a lie used for propaganda." and presenting those two things as equal.


pack0newports

i went to a very elite college one of my buddies was from kentucky and he told he he was taught in high school that the holocaust didn't happen. this was 20 years ago. i couldnt believe it. this is a genius level intellect guy and he was pretty anti-semetic when i met him.


BlueGrotta

> he told he he was taught in high school that the holocaust didn't happen. I'm calling bullshit. I'd love to see the curriculum that they used to deny it.


baldvee

The opposing view on THE HOLOCAUST? like…nazism??? I hate my state so much.


xiipaoc

"Well, wholesale killing of 11 million innocent people including 6 million Jews wasn't that bad, actually." -- Texas textbooks


ReddeningStars

When Nazi sources themselves say 6 million were killed (Wilhelm Höttl, citing Adolf Eichmann - 4 million Jews killed in camps and 2 million others by different means, a 'holocaust by bullets'), I don't know what sort of mental gymnastics it would take to say it didn't.


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LockedOutOfElfland

“Opposing views” wtf? The Holocaust was bad and killed innocent people. It was a demonstration of how people can be led to evil by charismatic leadership and also of how the excesses of late imperial western thought converged on a point that made (or should have made) everyone in the Americas and Europe - everyone beyond that and in general who was aware of the situation - reconsider the past societal legitimization and normalization of eugenics and scientific racism. Holocaust denial or worse Holocaust apologetics should have no place in the classroom, but sadly there are some incredibly nasty folks out there who seem to.... disagree? I can’t.


OddlyWholesomePerson

What is a book with an opposing perspective? Mein Kampf?


realistic_escape25

What opposing perspective is there?!? It’s sad seeing such open and blatant antisemitism in the world today.


AniZaeger

I want to see Southlake's curricula and collection of books regarding "opposing views" of the Alamo.


Velha_et_louca

How did this post turn into an anti Texas thing? This sub is getting more and more prejudiced, just like some Jews nowadays. Texas politics bothers them more than the case of antisemitism and misinformation itself


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1235813213455891442

Unsurprising, a wild anti-semite appears.


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Enjolras55

The point of the recording (and yes I listened to it) is that if this happens, the teachers will have to provide an alternate view on something like the Holocaust. Even if she doesn't like it, she'll probably do it to comply with the state.


benemanuel

Holocaust denial, Anti-semitism and Anti Israel is one. You can't you love jews and still believe that the holocaust is a Zionist manipulation.


_c0sm1c_

The U.S beats the Nazis, and 80 years later they're willing to defend them.