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There are no safe spaces

There are no safe spaces

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souredskittles

I remember reading this was a thing somewhere 🤔 old predators going to AA meetings to prey on vulnerable women.


3V13NN3

The infamous 13th step. Yes, there is even a name for it. Disgusting.


CSardothien_1

The hell? Please explain…


idestroythingsfora-

Cause AA is a twelve step program, however the infamous "thirteenth step" is basically when a person who finished the program dates someone who just started it. It's pretty discouraged, at least from what I've seen lol. https://alcoholrehab.com/alcohol-recovery/aftercare/the-13th-step/


EclecticBarbarella

It’s also… super frowned upon where I live, I had a friend in AA and he said the groups here will ask you to leave if you’re trying to date around like this


idestroythingsfora-

That's good tbh. Where I live there isn't AA because alcohol is restricted, but I'm glad to know that there are *some* measures to stop people from getting abused and taken advantage of.


CSardothien_1

Wow thanks for this I had no idea this was a thing…


Blindtothesided

Omg! I've always seen people refer to the thirteenth step on reddit and I never knew what it meant! Thanks for explaining!


notochord

Yep. That’s why I only go to woman-only meetings and encourage all women to do the same.


thruwuwayy

Imagine bragging about fucking teenagers when you're a grown ass adult. Not even touching the predation element 🤮


shelballama

And bragging that he didn't buy her a single thing so it can't be him being a sugar daddy. Good lord


Big-Respond8481

Right? He should just say that he has no money or that he is selfish😂


shelballama

"I'm a cheap old perv who refuses to acknowledge the developmental and experience differences that make an age gap relationship inherently imbalanced but LoVe Is LoVe"


Big-Respond8481

LoVe!!! Yeah, it can't be love if you and your partner are unequal.


midwesternwinds

Then they can date a 75 year old woman who has no patience for p*rn or video games. Love is love!


shelballama

Right! Lol never goes this way does it???


XRoze

Dude that’s the age gap subreddit in a nutshell. The posts there are like a house of horrors. If it’s not a 50 year old man crying about how his 19 year old girlfriend’s parents won’t accept him, it’s a 30 year old woman trashing society for looking down on her for being in a relationship with a 60 year old for the last 15 years.


shockingupdate

“Hey baby, you’re recovering from addiction and so am I. It’s like we’re soulmates! Want to swap one vice that could ruin your life for another?”


Equal-Ear2312

It's going to end with them drinking together? 🤡


coldfoot23

He’s a fucking predator. As someone who is going through rehab right now he’s preying on vulnerable young women and he knows it. It’s recommended that no one in rehab should have a relationship at least for a year let alone with each other.


dahliaukifune

In my experience private DM during a meeting is also forbidden or highly discouraged, is it not? I’ve been to other Anonymous meetings myself where that was the case.


coldfoot23

Absolutely, private contact between people in rehab is frowned upon.


bareasscontessa

Side note: Hugs and good juju to you for getting help!


lostmillenia

This is called 13th stepping within AA.(The 12 steps are the program). Totally frowned upon and in the program, women with more sober time do tend to look after new women coming in, who are extremely vulnerable. This guy is DANGEROUS. So bad. It absolutely happens. Just inevitable when there are so many sick people in an area. There are women only meetings, but they arent what the vast majority of new women are going to. Some men are creepier than others. Ive been working AA for 4 years. Its recommended to find a sponsor of your own gender and to not date the first year sober. Many dont follow that advice seriously, as it can be hard to do the real work that is laid out in the Big Book of AA. I would say though that you learn what meetings feel safe and have solid recovery mojo and which have been taken over by BS. I prolly wouldn't recommend a woman go to a meetimg at Soldier On unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. like if your ass is on fire and youll drink otherwise. Now that I have FDS, it has only increased my caution in AA and renewed my sense of importance for womens' only meetings.


ChemicalCobbler

Yep. I wanted to go to NA meetings after my ex died of an overdose to get some closure. My therapist advised me not to specifically because men prey on women there. I thought it would be okay, and I went anyway despite her advice. I ended up being approached by several men who were obviously desperate and looking to hookup (asking for my number, and to "hang out") and I never went back. It's disgusting how men will find any opportunity to prey on women, no matter the circumstances. This is why women only spaces are so important.


souredskittles

Okay, so it is true. I remember hearing this exact thing somewhere.


Davina33

Men make me feel like I am a duck and they are a fox/hawk. Waiting for that opportunity to devour a woman inside and out. That's really how it is with most of them.


DancingCatflower

>This is why women only spaces are so important. Yet they're being taken from us at an alarming rate...


[deleted]

Men can only exploit women when we're isolated from each other, vulnerable, and dependent on what passes for male goodwill.


shutup201

I look at this as one step above rape because rather than flat out raping, they're going after easy prey to take advantage of. The lack of regard, the objectifying, the exploitation, etc is all the same. Ugh! I hate that men get away with this. It's so damn rampant. They get a cute little nickname like fuckboi and it's like...no, this is a whole damn sexual predator.


shutup201

Most people reading this would find nothing wrong with it but it's like...geez, this guy is 40 and messing with vulnerable women, a 24 yo in AA and naive 19 yo. He's wrong and foul as hell and he knows it, but so what they're adults. I hate how almost anything is allowed if a woman is 18 plus and you can convince her to say yes. Eta: It's not ok to target vulnerable people at any age and they're should never be any convincing to have sex imo.


[deleted]

Ugh. I wonder if she even had the same perception of “asking him out” that he did…I message people and invite them to coffee because they’re new and need support, not because it’s a fucking date or hookup (a lot of people say you shouldn’t date the first year or date anyone in their first year and I believe in that wholeheartedly). So damn thankful I am in a mostly LGBT group though (although we still have our own issues with inappropriate behavior at times). The documentary the 13th step really exposes a lot of the issues with how 12 step culture can enable abuse and gender-based violence.


rideoffalone

Midlife crisis, party of one, your table is ready.


kreutzwortraetzel

The reason he posts these stories is to ___humblebrag___ to other men. I'm oLd uGLy pOor and an alCOHolIC but young women aRe ALL OVER ME. I dONt knOW wHy?? ___HELP___ 🤡


spinsterchachkies

If I was going through any treatment program I wouldn’t want to be around men. Who knows what other issues she has that compels her do what’s she’s doing with this guy. But its sad and I feel bad for her.


spicyspa

I agree with the lack of safe spaces. I'd like to add though that these posts about a barely adult women flirting with much older men are likely fake and meant to promote this idea so young women will accept it and feel ashamed if they want young hot men.


[deleted]

If it's an AA meeting, I wouldn't be surprised if someone offering to be a sponsor was taken as "sExUal InTeResT"


MadameDestruction

Eh, I'm afraid these are less likely to be fake than we may wish them to be. These kind of stories resemble a lot of what I went through around the age of 18. Especially during a vulnerable time when recovering from an addiction or mental health issue, old predators know where to find you. In hindsight it is so obvious they only saw you as a piece of meat, but you're too broken, misguided, and confused to consider that or even think you'd deserve better. Me and a lot of the girls I knew back then were also still buying into the sugar baby idea, though we usually weren't capable enough on a communicative level to ever even realize any (monetary) benefits for ourselves out of those relationships. I wish young girls pursuing old men was less common, god I really do. Just two years ago I was briefly in the weirdest threeway relation with a 50 year old scrote and another 18 year old girl, and besides my own naivety I think a combination the patriarchy, libfem bullshit, and scrotes not knowing how to not take advantage of vulnerable girls and see them as people is to blame... Maybe these particular stories are fake because people bragging to strangers on the internet is a pretty weird, but unfortunately I think what is portrayed in the story isn't so unrealistic.


spicyspa

Thanks for your insight. ? For you, did you make the first reach out to the much older guy?


MadameDestruction

It's complicated... Short answer: I didn't go out of my way to find a 50 year old man, but I did begin flirting with him and telling him I thought it was hot he was so much older etc. Longer answer: I got in contact with him more or less by chance on the internet. We discovered we lived close to each other, though we didn't get physical with each other at all over the course of the relation. In the beginning we just chatted "normally" (I got to be honest, I had the habit of chatting a bit flirty to any guy at the time, so much that I was genuinely shocked if a conversation didn't turn sexual straight after I said I was a girl), he asked me for a picture, made me do all this weird stuff to confirm I am real and a real girl, said that I was beautiful a lot, and then he revealed his age to test if I'd leave or not. I had just heard I am super beautiful and amazing from a stranger so I was still there with my head and said I didn't mind his age at all. To reciprocate the compliments I said I thought our age gap was hot and I'm into older men (this guy was ugly, he looked like a wrinklier brother of Guy Frieri tbh). What I thought was something just between the two of us for about a week, turned out to be solely him searching for a "playmate" for his ... _long term_ 17/18 year old girlfriend. She was unhappy in their relationship (no shit) so they had decided to try something new. He thought lesbians were hot so he set us up together. This was one of the first times but unfortunately not the only time I was blatantly fetishized. I was lowkey aware of it but highkey confused. I stepped out of that after a while because I noticed the old dude didn't care about me unless I was kissing his girl or something... Luckily, with the help of a new guy (who later went on to coerce me into "slave play") I got out of that before I even had to touch the 50 year old. I don't know how him and that poor girl are doing now tho.


Blindtothesided

a "playmate" for his ... ***long term*** 17/18 year old girlfriend


Midnight-writer-B

😥😥😥. Where are the parents while this crap is happening?!! If someone looked at my daughters like this I would peel his eyeballs. Hopefully one of the girlfriend’s friends or family members can get through to her eventually.


MadameDestruction

> 😥😥😥. Where are the parents while this crap is happening?!! Unfortunately I am still wondering the same. I only spend a very brief period of time with these people and most interaction with them was online so my parents didn't know. It is honestly just hard to remember and there are a lot of gaps in my memories from that period of time. I feel bad I can't really check up on that girl or help her, I know too little from these people and when I did know them I really wasn't in the best position mentally (like I said, I couldn't even get myself to leave on my own, I needed somebody else to help me or I would have stayed for longer). I feel like all I can do now is share my story. I feel like this type of thing is happening to a lot more young girls everyday, so I hope parents read my story and those from others so they will be aware and ready to guide there daughters away from this shit.


Midnight-writer-B

Of course my friend. I’m so glad you’re ok. I was not saying this is your responsibility. But children + internet access = the stuff of nightmares. It is so sad how many families are dysfunctional and how all of these dirtbags are getting access to teenagers.


MadameDestruction

Oh okay. I totally agree. It is sad, but all the more reason to keep FDS going


spicyspa

Yep. How long?


spicyspa

Thanks for the explanation! I'm glad you were able to get out of that trap though your next boyfriend sucked. I do recall being when I was a babysitter at 13 being driven home by the father. We had a good discussion. He mentioned that I seemed mature for my age and I was flattered but I don't recall being specifically attracted to him. When I told my mom, she flipped out and wouldn't let me babysit for them. Good move on her part, though I wasn't happy about it at the time. My parents were shitty but they were moralistic about sex, which saved me in the long run. I didn't understand grooming at the time and if I continued to babysit and be driven home by the father I can see it could've turned


tomatfrogbubbles

A lot of women are with older men though. Wouldnt immediately write it off as fake.


abby_ch238

But likely it didn’t go the way he is saying where she started flirting. He probably negged an already vulnerable/low self esteem young girl and she just went along bc she saw no other option for herself.


slight_sapphire

Agreed. I seriously doubt a 40-something man has young women throwing themselves at him like he describes lol


seashellsupplier

Or he preyed on her sense of empathy. ‘I’m having such a rough time, I’ve lost all my friends.’ Something like that so she would pity him. She probably thinks they are going out as friends but he has another thing planned. I hope she stays safe!


Big-Respond8481

She probably wanted to make a new friend but he read it as a date and then he negged her into more.


lostmillenia

He's blaming her like she started it. Sick perv. Trying to talk everyone into thinking its okay


_electrafire

Lmao he’s totally lying about that woman hitting him up over zoom. He definitely made the first move on her considering he also got w a 19 yr old. Always be skeptical of men’s explanations and narratives around their relationships, especially on Reddit


GullibleAd3549

Trauma bonding, yummy


foxorhedgehog

Isn’t dating within AA heavily frowned upon?


lostmillenia

Yes. Its recommended to be single your first year and not get into anything so you can work your steps. Sobriety first. Everything else is gravy. Way different than a situation like: Im 4 years sober I would not be against dating a man in the program who also has solid sobriety. In my opinion, if he has a good sponsor and has worked the steps, especially if he has made it through 4-9 that indicates to me his is capeable of deep self-reflection, which is so sexy to me and I would love to meet more men like that. Id be elated. Also if you are sober, many sober people want sober partners. (Me, I dont want alcohol in my home and want to be with someone who also has a sober lifestyle. So much easier.) But some women dont mind. Length of sobriety and your spiritual condition can help you learn that. Doing the steps too help you figure where you went wrong in past relationships, and at a certain point you also make an ideals list to grow toward and things you need in a relationship. The steps are the "walk the walk, talk the talk". There are plenty of men who just coast through too and havent, but it's said that isnt going to keep you sober. Dry drunks can be bad too. My dad is 10+ years sober, but works the occasional program, and I wouldnt set him up with anyone. He's a lonely oogler. So, YMMV (your mileage may vary).


Blindtothesided

Thank you for the clarification at the very end. I've seen YMMV a few times and always wondered what it meant.


eveloe

If the meeting was hosted on Zoom like he said, the admin gets a chatlog (even of the private messages) He’s going to get clocked.


Novemberinthechair

Yeah, dude, you are sick.


Emergency-Feed8216

The old age-gapper in recovery theme gave me a flashback. Years ago, I ran into a guy in LA whom I'd met in NY through friends. He asked me out. I was 18 and assumed he was about 24- 25, which was still a stretch. I agreed to the date mostly because I didn't know that many people in LA. During dinner, I noticed a few little things like a stray gray chest hair or two and the skin over his temples and the bridge of his nose seemed slightly thin. Also he had this "furtive" vibe, like he was waiting to be found out. It gave me a chill and he admitted he was over 40. Nyope. I wouldn't kiss him at drop off, never went out with him again. He was moderately famous at the time, but money, fame or whatever, I wasn't into the gap. Turns out this is kind of a thing with ex heroin addicts, which also turned out to be the deal with him. It's like they never enter middle age, hover in some static, vampirish youth stage for a number of years with just a few little giveaways, but then, all of a sudden, violently plunge into poor health and old age. I asked my mother why ex junkies commonly look so young. She'd been an artist in NY at the height of the "Needle Park" era and knew what I was talking about. She thought about it and said, "Heroin is all about not caring. They probably have no stress." Chemical sociopathy, like botox for the soul. Then oh my God, this guy just crumbled at some point. I married someone close to my own age around the time this guy married someone 12 years younger than him. He left her a widow around 16 years later. At the end he looked like death chewing on a cracker.


MissWestSeattle

I usually keep my issues private because men in the past have absolutely preyed on me when they found out I had depression. I wish I had known about FDS back then because I got taken advantage of over and over. Makes me sick to think about now but I'm glad I'm here, healing and leveling up


Blindtothesided

Oh god, same. I've been a widow for ten years and the number of men who have tried to use that to their advantage is appalling. It's like it turns some men on, it's sick. I am no longer upfront about it.


Midnight-writer-B

I’m sorry my friend. That’s appalling.


wonkyeyes8877

"I pray on vulnerable young women, but it's ok as long as they say they're 18+".


thinktwiceorelse

Imagine sleeping with 18 y.o. I would feel horrible. They look so young, child-like, both boys and girls!


everythingandlove

My dad is in AA, whatever else, I respect his rule when he started that he could never date any females who were recovering. (it was actually my great uncle who made him promise not to tho and he was a Priest) 😂


GabbaG0ul

It’s sad how many men scout vulnerable women out at group therapy and AA. It’s too easy for them to access. I used to volunteer for youth outreach/youth group. So many men attended our camp fire meetings posing as youth advocates, just to groom 14 year old girl into sexual relationships. It was horrible. I might make a post about it later. I tried to speak up, but was silenced and labeled as jealous. Men aren’t typically charitable. So be on the lookout for men attending any type of outreach, group therapy, youth recreation, etc.


Blindtothesided

I would love to read a post about that. I've never thought about men posing as youth advocates to lure young girls. A post would be awesome, especially for those of us teaching daughters FDS standards.


Bleep_bloop5678

Men are fucking SICK. Like a teenager?! You are a grown ass old adult. And you find TEENAGERS sexually attractive?!


Pokegirloras

This reads like fanfiction. No way some 46 yo alcoholic is gonna appear attractive to women that young


AJLake80

How pathetic.


hijabae_

100% this didn’t happen lmao. I don’t believe a word scrotes say anymore


Equal-Ear2312

Welcome to the city of delusions... Scrote thinks he's in fight club and had found marla singer... Have you ladies seen a raisin? That's how his ass might look. Taking advantage of young alcoholic women.


dr_mcstuffins

#thathappened


randowordgenerator

12-step programs are not therapy. It's god-bothering bullshit and has no scientific basis. It's hard to avoid when it's used instead of health care in the justice system. Avoid.


lostmillenia

There are many 12 step groups. Im sorry you had bad experiences and want to throw them all away, but for some it is their only avenue to help. You know SO MANY men refuse therapy and rehab treatment. A lot of people have problems with the "higher power" thing. You can pick whichever God/Goddess you like. You can pick the Universe. Or your higher power can be your peers, this G.O.D. Some refer to this mindset when they came in where they werent religious, but their higher power was a Group Of Drunks, sitting right there with them in the meetings. It is said that sometimes alcoholics do need "outside treatment" and it is encouraged to visit therapists, doctors, trained professionals. Many are mentally unwell people who can recover as others have. Many do the 12 steps and therapy on top. I did both. The point of 12 step programs is to hear from another alcoholic about their condition of alcoholism. We teach each other how to live. How to be sober. For free. Out of the importance of carrying the message. And it works. People do stay sober, if they do the work. It sucks you've encountered bad meetings or bad programs where you are. Not certain what else you suggest? Many early (1900s) alcholics went to see psychologists. They were sent to asylums by their familes for periods of time where they detoxed, were sent home and ended up drinking again. Who couldnt cure them? One man thought he was cured, turned out he took that first drink. He had spent a massive amount of time being treated by Carl Jung. Jung threw up his hands and told the man there was nothing more he could do. That people who had recovered went through a spiritual change, like a fucking miracle. Back in the AA early days it was like 100% success. They took people through the program in like a weekend. They had so much success they wrote a how-to guide to recover. The big book. It saved a lot of people. Can you see how AA can fill a hole we have?


randowordgenerator

I'm saying AA is not a substitute for health care, and in a country without health care, this is what we have. Self-help is great, but I'm not arguing against self-help and all its benefits. There is all kinds of bad behavior in AA and it's not just a "me problem."