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Redditors who've done their research on Islam.

Redditors who've done their research on Islam.

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JollyGreenSocialist

r/ExMuslim would be a good community for this. I'm not a former Muslim myself (former Catholic here) but you'll be able to find people who have done a lot of digging into their former religion there. I'm sure someone in that sub will prove helpful. Also, I second that other person who said they'd like to hear more about what you find. Any plans to post a summary of your thoughts?


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Already posted and waiting for responses. And yes I will be posting what what I learn along the way.


slkfj08920

Every isnaad chain is fabricated. See pages 43-44 of The Wiley Blackwell Concise Companion to The Hadith (2020) which says: "....... **the likelihood that any given tradition can be confidently attributed to the Prophet approaches zero.** Extraordinary efforts have been exerted, for example, to make the case that a particular tradition might plausibly be traced to within 50 or 60 years of the events it recounts, but establishing a given hadith report as authentically Prophetic is seldom in view. When a careful scholar like Harald Motzki criticizes Goldziher (Motzki 2005), it is not to argue for the authenticity of hadith in the usual sense, but to argue that Goldziher’s methods of dating are imprecise, his skepticism overgeneralized, and that rigorous methods can plausibly establish the origins of particular elements of the hadith to authorities of the early second or late first century. This is generally the most that we can hope to gain.........Goldziher’s broad premise won the day: **the vast bulk of the hadith literature will be of little help as a source for seventh‐century Arabia or the career of the Prophet,** rather it will provide evidence about the beliefs of the Muslim community and the development of Islamic law and piety. **Debate then moves on to the question of whether we can find convincing ways to get behind the third‐century literary sources** and, if so, how far into the early second or late first century the hadith might take us. Post‐Goldziher hadith studies might be seen as a series of attempts to slowly, painstakingly, and partially fill **the yawning gap in our knowledge of early Islam** that he exposed."


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Hey man, I don't know if you are a bot a just found it off of someone and kept it as copypasta but could you explain to why you are using wiley blackwell as a source? Also thanks for the input i'd look into that book which you quoted.


slkfj08920

>but could you explain to why you are using wiley blackwell as a source? Wiley Blackwell is a well known academic publisher. Why are you trying to read Islamic texts yourself, when real scholars have studied Islam for decades?


cambuulo

They also don’t know much about Islam that is unbiased (generally). You can watch the debates of ex Muslim representatives such as apostate prophet and Harris sultan who are routinely decimated


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Okay thanks for the input.


Hiding_behind_you

Have you considered walking into your local mosque and asking to speak with someone?


Birdsinthetrapbroski

My roommates are muslim and they only have two books with them The quran and the tafsir ibn kathir. I am looking for more and the local mosque and my roommates, although very nice people, aren't exactly the people I would ask for unbiased sources on islam. I would ask them obvious but I want to keep it as unbiased as possible. As for why I asked it in this sub, I believe that atleast a few people in this sub might have done their fair share of research on Islam and other religions in order to get a better foundation for their beliefs/position so as to not get tongue tied when posed with a question regarding their beliefs. So now, not to be rude but do you have something else to suggest or is that it?


Hiding_behind_you

/r/exMuslim


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thanks


truerthanu

Umm, yeah. They’re all just made up. All of them. Religions I mean. All of the religions are just made up. sorry


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Be it fiction or non fiction, i am still researching bc again this for my own benefit. Is there a unicorn? Maybe maybe not. Have you seen one? Nope. is there any fossils out there? Again nope. But are there horned animals out? Yes so could you really rule out the possibility without doing a bit of research yourself, even if you believe its made up? So again, not trying to be rude but >My roommates are muslim and they only have two books with them The quran and the tafsir ibn kathir. I am looking for more and the local mosque and my roommates, although very nice people, aren't exactly the people I would ask for unbiased sources on islam. I would ask them obvious but I want to keep it as unbiased as possible. **As for why I asked it in this sub, I believe that atleast a few people in this sub might have done their fair share of research on Islam and other religions in order to get a better foundation for their beliefs/position so as to not get tongue tied when posed with a question regarding their beliefs.** So now, not to be rude but do you have something else to suggest or is that it?


truerthanu

I don’t find you rude and hope the same. Whatever god I can conceive of would never rely upon such a fallible creature as man to spread his word. All religions are made by man. As such, they serve man, not god. I mean, can you imagine god refusing to pay taxes? His fair share to help thy fellow man? It’s literally the opposite of what was preached every Sunday I was in church. They are all made up, exaggerations of ambiguous stories that have very limited credibility. Let me put it another way.: Wikipedia. Well sourced and reliable. The modern day encyclopedia. Now imagine you print out and bind into books the entirety of every Wikipedia page. Warehouses full of Wikipedia books with every conceivable subject explained and sourced. and organized and cross-referenced. Now, you can either put your faith in all of that or the bible choose


younggoth96

wikiislam.net It's a wiki run and maintained by former muslims that's probably as close as you can get to an unbiased source for islamic knowledge. although it too, like everything else, has been accused of having an "anti-islam bias". regardless, it will provide you with a very strong base. it is also important to note that muslims have sooo many sects and soo many different opinions that it's pretty much impossible to find even a single concept that the entire muslim community would agree on. Additionally you can search for websites that host databases of the six sunni hadith collections and the four shia hadith collections. there are also websites that host thousands of translations of quran, so you can read multiple translations of a single verse and get a very clear idea.


rulebreaker_muc

Awesome resource, didn't know it and already loving the content after few reads. Do you happen to know similar resources for other religions?


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thanks for commenting a part of my thoughts! I'd stick to islam for now. How you get what you are looking for!


SignificanceOk7071

Ex Muslim here Translations do hold value, some(very few) arrogant muslims to save their butt, just throw all the scholars/translators under the bus. **I would recommend reading these publications:** 1/ Saheeh international(Accepted by everyone almost) 2/ Pickthal (Archaic english) 3/ Muhammad Hijab(Prominent muslim apologist) 4/ Dr. Mustafa Khattab (Easy to understand translations) Obviously you don't have to read all of them, so pick which ever you like. 😅 **You can read about the Quran in english in these 2 websites:** ***https://quran.com*** (14+ translations some by popular apologists like Muhammad Hijab himself) ***https://www.islamawakened.com*** (55+ English translations of the Quran) **They have a labeling system for all these translations which includes** 1) Popular and/or Featured Works 2) Source Arabic and Literal tools 3) Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning 4) Controversial or status undetermined works 5) Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works 6) New, Partial, or In Progress Translations 7) Obsolete and/or older editions **For hadiths:** ***https://sunnah.com/*** I don't know any other online places but people generally accept sunnah.coms work. For the tafsirs: Well in quran.com if you press on the three dots(vertical arrangement) on the top right of the verses, the site gives you various tafsir sources, Ibn Kathir is one of the most well respected scholar so i suggest reading his tafsirs. **P.S: The Quran was organized 23 years after Muhammads(the prophet of Islam) death, so it's organized in a very messy way.** ***https://tanzil.net/docs/revelation_order*** ^ This site gives the chronological order of when the Qurans chapters were revealed. Hope this was helpful.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thank you so much for your input. I'd look it all of that. Mind if i ask you why you left, like which part or event was the tipping point for you?


younggoth96

for me specifically, it was muhammad's extremely eventful sex life, which made me take a very critical look at other aspects of islam and safe to say, the damage was irreversible. (cue issues like slavery, sex slavery, child marriages, domestic violence, non-domestic violence, scientific blunders, historical inaccuracies, influence of paganism and corruption of its scripture).


SignificanceOk7071

You're welcome np, lmk if u need any more help. I wrote the reasons i left some days ago on another post heres the [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/q23c2h/why_did_you_leave_islam/hfjhrg8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thank you so much. Do you know where i might be able to find english translations for fiqh?


SignificanceOk7071

I think you should finish the quran first then hadiths. Other wise you wouldn't understand fiqh. Also i don't think you learning fiqh would benefit u as different schools of thoughts have different fiqhs. I myself don't bother learning fiqh i just google about the rulings of whatever concept i'm interested in(i.e wife beating, adoption etc etc).


Frommerman

There's no such thing as an unbiased source on anything. Sources written by white westerners are obviously more likely to have the problems you expect from that, and sources written by Muslims are obviously more likely to have entirely different issues, as are sources written by Indian Hindus, Zoroastrians, Jews, ex-Muslim atheists, etc. But none of those sources are guaranteed to be problematic, and of course every Muslim is going to have a different take on each source. I recommend reading many sources and drawing your own conclusions.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thanks for your input. I've posted my request in r/islam, r/DebateAnAtheist and r/exmuslim. Most of the resources that i've been suggested are common to all the three subs so I am fairly certain that they are reputable. As for the conclusions they've reached is up to them bc they know what they wanted from it. I am trying to go into this as blank and open minded as i can without compromising my rationalism too much.


Yilanqazan

I don’t know what sources you’ve been provided but I can tell you that Wikiislam isn’t actually all that reliable from my personal experience. But it my understanding may be outdated.


tontonrancher

There is one thing that you need to know about Islam, first and foremost. It's like everyone else on the planet got the memo that pride is a sin, except Islam. Islam makes a faith of pride. And Islam is essentially a supremacist/intolerant thing (google what their own scholars have to say about freedom of speech/expression....they are conflating it with crime/violence when and if they so much as percieve insult, genuine or not, to Islam) You are a non-Muslim. And so you, attempting to approach islam in a fair and ballanced way, is never going to be acceptable to Muslims. The Quran teaches that non-believers are, first and foremost, ignorant (among other inordinate preoccupations demonizing and denigrating non-Muslims). It's quite astonishing that they often get away with always calling non-believers ignorant... straight to our faces. Back to pride... 99.9% of all Muslims will gliby and absurdly tell you that "Islam is perfect... PERFECT" Decrying that one can only truely undersand Islam in it's original Arabic is not only overtly ethno-chauvanistic AF, but also a bullshit defensive crutch. Arabic is one of the most fucked up and confused languages on the planet, and one of the last major cultures to have a written language, which persian scribes had to create, for them, from that consonantal Nabetian alphabet they were trying to work with (no vowels). So nobody except those who'd previously, supposedly, memorized the teachings of thier prophet, could pronounce/recite the first Qurans (Uthman codex). An interesting artifact of that oral tradition is that it is considered quite prestigeous to be able to recite the Quran from memory. Some even beat their children trying to get them to memorize and recite it correctly. but I digress. As far as what language the translation is in, I've yet to have a Muslim explain to me what was lost in translation. And I have seen, so far, that every muslim says and acts, as a matter of faith, exactly how I would expect them too based upon my understanding of their doctrine. So either there are NO Muslims who understand their own doctrine, or it is possible for non-Muslims, and non-Arab speakers, to discerne the meanings conveyed by their doctrines, as they talk and do as I would expect them too based on my understanding of their doctrines. So use whatever translation you want... and just remember that nobody actually knows what the teachings of Mohammad were. But it doesn't take much in the way of reading between the lines to know that he was quite the authoritarian, criminal, and vindictive sort... and so astonishly unlike any other Abrahamic prophet in that respect. They believe that they must emulate their prophet in every respect. Which is why... Islam progresses by first claiming to be the victims of whatever crime, and everyone else eventually ends up enslaved, or subordinate/submitting to beneficent Islam /s, or dead.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

I have noticed that among them yes. My roommates are muslim so I have seen that. But couldn't that claim be made for all other beliefs out there as well including atheism?


IntroductionSea1181

Certainly most religions have a "we're better than everyone else" chauvinism...and there will be minority extremist sects within mainstream religions who believe in, for example, the inerrency of the bible. Islam takes things quite a bit further though. It is supremacist shit. First, in the near universal belief that Islam is perfect, and second, in the way they will respond, at best dismissively, at worst violently, to any questions or criticism of Islamic doctrine. The Quran also instructs them to lie to non-muslims, so long as doing so advances the supremacy of Islam...and they do so quite frequently. You can talk mostly talk to members of other major religions and reasonably have a sober discussion about the outdated or whacky sensibilities that is thier doctrine's case..even have a good mutual laugh (e.g talking to Hindu about some of their wildly non-sensical myths) Such, near universally, is not the case with Muslims. The response will be one or more of what I call The Five Sins of Islam... All of which come back to thier first and foremost sin: Pride. 1. Pride/boasting...(often really juvenile shit too, like believing non-muslim women are chomping at the bit to get with Muslim men ...never minding that they have to keep their women from non-muslim men by threat of death) 2) lie deny omit obfuscate 3. Attack/blame...as in red herring whataboutism... changing the topic to all the naughty things non-muslims have done 4. Insults...if I had a dime for everytime a Muslim responded to questions with "YOU ARE IGNORANT...IGNORANT...". and stomped away 5. Threats/violence. Again...you can Google Islam and Freedom of speech/expression, and see what they themselves have to say about questioning and criticizing Islam. They conflate it with violent crime, and so are justified responding violently The bottom line is they make a faith of pride, like no others, and ultimately they cannot, in the long run, play well with others. Attempts at reformism are viciously eschewed, and muslim reformists are not long for this world....because it's admitting that Islam is not perfect


BigShubz

I kindly request you do not look at polemics to understand a religion, whether for or against Islam. For every 'Apostateprophet' people tell you to look at there is also a 'FaridResponds'. You won't learn anything. There's not much to be worried about in terms of bias when learning about the foundational aspects because what is there to be biased about? When it comes to the issues of controversy, then go ahead and choose where you want to take information from. (Both sides and them make your mind up obviously) I'm learning about Sikhism, and i simply went to Sikhi subreddit, and Basics of Sikhi youtube channel as a an example. They don't really do polemic's, but just explain what their religion is. Now i don't agree with their beliefs nor believe in them, but i least i understood and now have the basic knowledge. I would have got more twisted knowledge if i immediately went to the polemics, whether pro or against sikhism. Get the life jacket of the basics before you jump into the ocean of polemics.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

I did not know what polemics meant, now i do thanks for that. So are you suggesting i should get sources from muslims only or not to get them from people who have an agenda against the concept of god? I might have misunderstood you.


BigShubz

Of course i am Muslim so you can say i am biased for asking you to take from Muslims first, but i'll give the testimony of my experience in learning Christian theology. Take for example learning the trinity, from no Muslim did i learn the difference between 'person' and 'essence' of God. I only did from learning from Christian sources. Of course they also tried to explain why it was logical, but that's something you will have to deal with with using your own intellect. you'll always run into bias from both sides. And trust me, ex Muslims will not be charitable and neither this subreddit. With all due respect, this sub is for people to debate religion with already some good prior knowledge this sub isn't to build knowledge of a religion in terms of what they actually believe.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

I have considered that i have post the question from the islam subreddit as well. Now as for why i've asked in this sub as well is because >As for why I asked it in this sub, I believe that atleast a few people in this sub might have done their fair share of research on Islam and other religions in order to get a better foundation for their beliefs/position so as to not get tongue tied when posed with a question regarding their beliefs.


IntroductionSea1181

In his response, you should readily identify two of The Five Sins of Islam: changing the topic (looky this crazy trinity stuff), and the indictments of the ignorance of non-muslims (they have no "knowledge")


CheesyLala

What made you think that Atheists were the right group to ask about theological matters? If you want my advice, ignore the lot it. It's just fairly tales.


RonsThrowAwayAcc

Because many have left theism and I’m assuming they want them for counters to what’s contained in the books


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Yes and no, I am an athiest but i live with muslims. So when ever a topic regarding god comes up we end up in a loop of god said so and quran proves god. I consider their reasoning a fantasy but its not enough because I have no idea what written in the quran. Its kind of left me in a invalidated state of mind so i am researching to revalidate my beliefs. And there's so much stuff on the internet that i have no idea which ones are valid criticisms of a islam and which ones are mindless blabber. So i wanna do my own research find which ones are which and form my own thoughts and for that i need help hence why i am asking.


RonsThrowAwayAcc

Good on you for wanting to do your own non biased research


ragingintrovert57

Very admirable approach. If only everyone did the same...


Restored2019

The world needs a lot more like you. Relatively few will actually do a deep dive into religion. Instead, they will just accept hearsay and propaganda as fact. Either for or against. I’ve spent the vast majority of 78 years questioning everything about religion, questioning anyone that promotes it, questioning how something so universally accepted, can also be the source of much of the poverty, hate, violence and anti science across the globe. Today, even with the threats, abuse and murders of innocent people, just on the basis of them not supporting whatever crazy religion. We have still seen a dramatic decline of a number of the Abrahamic religions. Science, technology and everyone that refuses to accept something so insane, so evil, so counterproductive, is finally having a significantly positive effect on the ability of rational people to reject it. But we’re still a long way from being free of the terrible effects of religion and it’s bedfellow, fascism. The one thing that atheists’s and other non-religious people seem to waste a lot of time on, is arguing about the existence of their fake god. NEVER ARGUE ABOUT GOD/S! No one but a religious fanatic/fascist will benefit from arguing about god/s. Everyone else should recognize that arguing about god/s is a circular argument. The answer is to study religions own documentation, which is the undeniable evidence of it’s own fallacy. If that doesn’t satisfy your curiosity, here’s some more proof: anthropology, archeology, geological, biology, palaeontology (study of fossils) and science in general.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thank you for your kind words but at the same time do not want to accept them since I am sceptical about my own approach and reason for doing this. I hope to be as open minded and at the same time rational to whatever material i read.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Copying my previous comment from another sub because I do not want to type this everytime some asks me this. My roommates are muslim and they only have two books with them The quran and the tafsir ibn kathir. I am looking for more and the local mosque and my roommates, although very nice people, aren't exactly the people I would ask for unbiased sources on islam. I would ask them obvious but I want to keep it as unbiased as possible. As for why I asked it in this sub is precisely because its an exmuslim/atheist sub, I believe that atleast a few people in this sub might have done their fair share of research on Islam and other religions in order to get a better foundation for their beliefs/position so as to not get tongue tied when posed with a question regarding their beliefs. So now, not to be rude but do you have something to suggest?


CheesyLala

Fair enough. My only suggestion would be that if you find texts about Islam then they will all be biased towards belief in Islam. What they really ought to read is stuff that takes them out of that world-view altogether - Dawkins, Hitchens and so on.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Alrighty, I'll look them up see what I can find. Thanks and sorry if I came off as being rude.


CheesyLala

No need to apologise, if anyone sounded rude it was me.


sleepyj910

There are many excellent ex muslim youtubers that you can search for. Of course, /r/exmuslim would probably be your best bet.


secretWolfMan

>I understand that translations of the Quran and related books aren't considered valid in islam It's the same of Christianity and Judaism. The Christians seem to care the least. But there are Christian Apologists that will claim all the "perceived contradictions" are a result of bad translation and misunderstood contexts.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

I did not know jews and Christians had the same requirement. I believe since they are more liberal then tend to let it pass or are completely oblivious to it.


vdub319

Apostate Prophet is one of my favorite YouTubers with hours upon hours of quality content.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thank you for your suggestion. Mind if i ask why you are suggesting me this channel? Like what do you like about them that made you suggest them.


ZeroSplice

Most translations are fairly accurate. Most translations also don't have offer the same level of meaning and communication as the Arabic itself. Also, much of the stylistic flourish, linguistic marvels, etc., are lost when translated. Nevertheless, you can try the popular Yusuf Ali translation. There's also the saheeh International. You could also start off with Quran.com It gives various translations per verse. If you want to go deeper into a single Arabic word, Lanes Lexicon is brilliant. Freely available online. In terms of tafseer, I've read a number of tafaaseer (pl.) and each offers a different 'map' of the Qur'aan. Each scholar either focus on a particular aspect of the Qur'aan (grammar, laws, related ahaadeeth, etc.), or they offer their scholarly opinion after having mastered various sciences in Islaam (Arabic, Fiqh, etc., etc.) Therefore, each scholar is a bit like a cartographer to a map. They will provide direction but not truly encapsulate the actual terrain, and more importantly, the actual journey. Rather look at the asbaabun nuzool (the reasons for revelation) which state the context, circumstance, or time frame of certain verses. Check also the naasikh and mansookh (the abrogations) Thirdly, look at the ahaadeeth related to some of the the verses of the Qur'aan. There are a few others to look at, but they are mostly centered around Arabic itself. These can be found on Google. For ahaadeeth (pl.) go through Bukhari and Muslim as a start. This is the raw sources of Islaam. I've read some of your posts earlier about seeking validation for your beliefs. I am not an atheist, and many years ago would often be involved in various debates, etc. I would seek validation for my beliefs as a believer in the Almighty by joining atheistic, agnostic, etc., groups. That's how I joined this sub reddit, if memory serves me correctly, to validate my beliefs as a believer in the Almighty. That stage has long passed, and I am simply at peace. Ultimately, I am a strong believer in being a Seeker of Truth. May your journey be met with diligence, fulfilment and goodness.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thank you for the suggestions and input and thanks for you kind words, yes I am seeking to revalidate my beliefs because recently i've felt like i am an atheist for the sake of being an atheist. Like a person who is there just to disagree when my others unanimously accept their beliefs without questioning themselves. I don't not seek to change their mind though just my own to avoid being someone who blabbers others opinions.


hematomasectomy

I've always thought that RationalWiki is a good place to start. You will at least get a perspective that isn't biased *within* Islam. RationalWiki can be considered provocative and downright offensive by some people, but I find the straight-forwardness (and sometimes tongue-in-cheek snark) to be mostly refreshing. There is *so much* to understand. It's not a monolithic religion at all, it's all shisms and sects and clans and islamism all rolled into a big ball of chaotic ummah. You have to consider the various sects; sunni, shia, Ibadi, salafists (Ahl-i Hadith, wahhabis...) and the role of [zoroastrianism's influence](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0008429819844499) on Islam in Persia and the gulf states... Oh, and save reading that particular paper until you know the basics pretty well. The point is that you have to just start *somewhere* and realize that a *lot* of what you can find about islam on the internet is written by muslims for muslims, or by muslims for purposes of ihtida/hidayah -- finding and converting more people to say the shahada and become muslims. **Do not trust any source yet.** *None.* If you are not extremely sure that the peple behind what you're reading has no agenda as such, then understand that Islam is polarized within and polarizing without. Also don't be afraid of looking up jihadist terrorist organizations like ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, Al-Nuzra Front, and the Taliban. And then read these: [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism), the relevant entries on [RationalWiki](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Terrorism#Religious) and [this](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2006/05/23/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world/). I sometimes joke that there's no such thing as a muslim, any more than there are people who are (US) indians\*. There are at least 574 different tribes in the US alone. To call them a collective with a monolithic foundation is just wrong. Navajo, Sunni; Cherokee, Shia... ^(\*this is the term they prefer and use on their reservations.)


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Hey thanks for your suggestions and inputs.


Phoney9

Here are online links to the Quran, Hadith, and Tafseer that's widely accepted by sunni Muslims today (majority muslims). Quran: quran.com Book: The Noble Qur'an with Full Page Arabic/English (SIZE 9.7 X 5 X 2 inches) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MSSYRIS/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_DNXVXJS9V2J7Q4M6GH27?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 Hadith: https://sunnah.com/bukhari Book: https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Translation-of-the-Meanings-of-Sahih-Al-Bukhari-Arabic-English-/131837704590?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0 Tafsir: http://m.qtafsir.com/ Book: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tafsir-Ibn-Kathir-10-Vol-Set-English-Arabic-best-Seller-Set-On-eBay-/133877823327?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0 And if you want analysis books on why Islam is wrong with examples of contradictions..you can check out these 2: Islam Dismantled: Mental illness of Muhammad And The truth about Muhammad by Robert spencer


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Okay thanks for the input. i'll be looking into it along the way. I'll read the quran without going into it first and then look at the contradictions during my 3rd read.


Hardin1701

A first step would be looking up interlinear translations which show the arabic and english together. A good translation needs an expert in textual criticism who knows the author and writing style so well they have a good idea of the intended meaning, but every translation always has some degree of error. What you can be sure of is when someone who says it must be in Arabic and tells you a passage means something radically different than the words on the page, that person is making excuses for content they find uncomfortable defending.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Okay so what you are saying is in those situations the implied meaning from the book must be true?


Hardin1701

I am not implying that any religious texts are "true" with regard to the supernatural claims, I am suggesting that when you hear an interpretation of a passage that doesn't match what is written, check the original language. For example in the Bible apologists claim the verses about slavery are about indentured servitude and are temporary and voluntary. Another example are the passages that talk about massacring other tribes and taken the virgin female children as war spoils. Apologists try and lawyer around these passages as well even though the Hebrew is very clear and this type of behavior in war is consistent with the contemporary attitudes. In Islam, some apologists say things like the earlier verses in the Quran are less authoritative than later chapters, women had more rights than men, Muhammad married, but didn't consummate the marriage with Aisha until she was much older, Islam doesn't encourage violence against heathens, blasphemers, Jews, people defeated in war, or apostates. When challenged on any subject they find inconvenient the fallback argument is "you need to read the original Arabic" as if that would drastically change the meaning. A major issue with early Christianity and Islam in general is a large number of believers were incapable of reading the texts for themselves and had to rely on the interpretation of the cleric.


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Birdsinthetrapbroski

Ahh okay i'll look at that but most members of the r/islam subreddit agree that translations are valid to an extent and is worth checking out so i'll go through that as well while I try to read the quran in Arabic itself.


BigShubz

>but I felt overwhelmed because I have no idea which ones are unbiased. but you also want to take from r/exmuslim and anti Islamic polemics? A good place to start in terms of translations is the Abdul Haleem translation by Oxford press. In terms of basics, Hamza Yusuf has a series on YouTube that goes through it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICu3ITHnBoM&list=PLLWosYrkNwE9\_IdtxX\_sI2BuOdmr8P8xQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICu3ITHnBoM&list=PLLWosYrkNwE9_IdtxX_sI2BuOdmr8P8xQ) (Hamza Yusuf - Foundational playlist)


younggoth96

well there's another one for shia islam (wikishia.net) that's run by some Iranian scholars. i found it quite helpful since i was raised in a sunni household, oblivious towards shia islam. apart from that, i haven't really studied other religions except maybe a Wikipedia article, so i can't really say. but i'm sure you'll find relevant resources on other religions with a couple google searches.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thanks I'll look into that


ali_bumaye

I would recommend asking r/Islam. You will find a lot of knowledgeable people there and also former atheists/christians who have done their research and embraced Islam. I can recommend "The Clear Qur'an" by Mustafa Khattab and "The Sealed Nectar" by Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri which is a Biography of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh based on authentic narrations.


BiperPiper

This is a website [that has in-depth translations](https://quran.com/) of any verse from any page and even has a play button for a voice to read the Arabic words out loud. It's pretty good for research on the Quran.


Helpful-Thomas

English Qurans are terrible, you’ll want to compare several of them together. That can take a huge amount of time so I’d just start there. Don’t forget they also believe in the Tanakh


ab568

The best scholarly yet accessible treatment of Islam is John Esposito's Islam: The Straight Path.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Hey thanks for the input. I'll check that out.


FielaBaggins

Please post some interesting facts and stories throughout your research, I know little about islam and wouldn't mind learning some more about it!


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Will do mate. Thanks.


slkfj08920

The Quran copies many apocryphal texts and Babylonian Talmud. See chapter 19 of "Wiley Blackwell Companion to the Qur'an, 2nd Edition". Here are just a few examples: The story of God ordering the angels and Iblis to bow to Adam is from the "Cave of Treasures". The details of Adam's 2 sons are from the "Life of Abel". The story of Abraham observing heavenly bodies, confronting his father and being thrown in the furnace is from the "Apocalypse of Abraham". The stories of Joseph copy "Homilies on Joseph of Pseudo‐Narsai", Midrash and Ephrem’s Commentary on Genesis. The Queen of Sheba story is from the "Targum Sheni of Esther". The details of Virgin Mary's life is from the "Protoevangelium of James". The story of Jesus making life from clay birds is from the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas."


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Sorry man but again; >Hey man, I don't know if you are a bot a just found it off of someone and kept it as copypasta but could you explain to why you are using wiley blackwell as a source? Also thanks for the input i'd look into that book which you quoted.


slkfj08920

>but could you explain to why you are using wiley blackwell as a source? Wiley Blackwell is a well known academic publisher. Why are you trying to read Islamic texts yourself, when real scholars have studied Islam for decades?


Birdsinthetrapbroski

True I am not a real scholar but the whole point of me doing my own research is so that i can have a better understanding for the religion itself. I've read a few articles on different religions and the non existence of God but I've never been able to explain it in my own words.


ihearttoskate

When you check out the exmuslim sub, they have a [whole wiki of sources](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/wiki/faq). I'd look at that too, since the wiki probably answers the questions you're asking in your post.


Birdsinthetrapbroski

Thanks i'll check that out.


JustforReddit99101

I highly recommend acts17apologetics on youtube. Thats a christian channel thats dedicated to critiquing islam in an entertaining way. He constantly uses the islamic sources to make arguments. The quran unfortunately is organized by length of surahs, so its a big mess. Imagine how confusing the bible would be if they organized the books by length.